No offense intended to our Japanese friends, of course — see comments #5, #11 and #23. — Dr D
"Really one bad pitch, the changeup to Olivo," Washburn said. "It seems to be a recurring thing — bad changeup in a game. I wish I wouldn't have thrown a changeup in that situation [a 2-2 pitch with one out]. I didn't really want to throw it, but I said yes when he [catcher Johjima] called it, and it lost the game for us."
Dickey admitted he'd "flogged himself" repeatedly for not shaking off catcher Kenji Johjima when he called for the first-inning fastball to Hunter, who'd ruined the Mariners on similar pitches while playing for Minnesota last season.
I've been watching baseball since Johnny Bench broke into the big leagues, and I don't ever remember seeing anything quite like this. I thought it was a given that, after a loss, you don't throw your teammates under the bus in public.
.
=== Even If You Were Right, You'd Be Out of Line ===
It doesn't even matter that Washburn and Dickey are wrong, which they are.
Saying that "in the fourth inning on 1-2 the curveball was the correct selection" ….
That is like Kevin Durant saying, "at 4:38 remaining, the correct thing was to go to my left instead of to my right. If I'd just gone right I wouldn't have gotten the ball stripped, and I should have known that with 4:38 left. But Collison thought the key was open, so I listened to him. Next time I'll remember to go right with 4:38 left."
There is no "correct" direction to go based on the clock, or the count, or the down/yardage situation. What, are you telling me that on every 1-2 count the rest of the year, Washburn is going to throw 100% fastballs? Because that is the "correct" pitch in that situation? Pitchers vary their selection all the time, and they have to.
If there is any "correct" thing to do, it is to do whatever the enemy is not expecting.
And the "correct" thing for Washburn to do to Miguel Olivo would have been to throw one of his sharp 76-77 change-slurves to a decent location, rather than throw a 79 tumbler with terrible arm action, that was belly high and outside third.
……………
When you only have two pitches, Jarrod, the other guys are going to guess right sometimes. There isn't any catcher who can fool the hitters for you on your next 3,000 pitches. Hitters guessing what you're throwing — both FB and slurve– is part of baseball life.
Three days after Erik Bedard started a game, Washburn lost a game — and gave a shockingly frank admission of how it is his fault that he doesn't have good pitches to throw.
Bedard's out one week, and it's back to same old, same old — I'd be great if not for the Jap catcher.
…………….
And is R.A. Dickey saying that in every clutch situation from now until 2015, he will always throw a knuckleball? That fastballs are completely ruled out whenever men are on base and the score is close?
Preposterous. And Kenji Johjima knows exactly what you do about this second-guessing — that next time, the pitchers will expect him to call for pitch mixes. He knows that if they get hit, he'll be told he shouldn't have mixed the calls, and he knows that if he does not mix the pitches, they'll give up ten runs.
…………….
But the issue isn't whether Washburn / Dickey were in the right. The issue is that they refuse to extend to Kenji Johjima the normal, minimal rights of a teammate.
.
=== Hostile Work Environment, Dept. ===
This is no isolated incident. During 2006, the Mariners' pitchers — as a staff — whined so incessantly that it trickled to the Mariner blog-o-sphere, which spent the 06-07 winter writing that the ballclub would never win with Johjima behind the plate.
Since March 07, things had seemed to change publicly, but…
How come Eddie Guardado got to blow 9,412 saves in April-May 2006, destroying the season, and all anybody ever did was make excuses for him? Why does the "don't show up your teammate" code apply to everybody except Johjima — and Ichiro, for that matter, if he's hitting under .300?
Why is it open season on the Jap catcher? Because he can't fight back. He's an easy target, much easier than if you ripped Eddie Guardado or Mike Hargrove or Adrian Beltre in the press for the world to see.
………………
And, because Johjima brings different ideas to the table. Different = uncomfortable. Who is this guy to change the way we do things?
I'm not PC by any means. But Kenji Johjima would not be reading in the papers that he is the reason for every defeat, if he were white.
Let me know the next time Jamie Burke gets publicly kneed in the cup by Jarrod Washburn.
Never happen. And you know why? Because Burke would read that, and he would walk over the next day and punch Washburn into his locker, and Washburn knows that.
But Kenji Johjima is tied to the school flagpole. If he walks over to Washburn's locker, 23 non-Japanese teammates step over behind Washburn (figuratively) to protect him.
……………..
For a city that wallows so luxuriously in its manufactured racial issues, we are awfully slow to stand up and say something — when we are presented with a rare case of authentic racism.
A response to real injustice is not nearly so much fun to enact. The PC charades, such as piling onto Carl Everett 500,000-on-1 for traditional beliefs mildly stated, are enjoyable; a real problem is unpleasant to deal with, and therefore ignored.
.
=== Extenuating Circumstances ===
I understand that both Washburn and Dickey are hanging on by their fingernails, and they are desperate for people to believe that next time out, they'll do better and win. I can sympathize. Both pitchers actually can do better than they did in the games in question.
I also sympathize that if Jarrod Washburn went over to play in the Central League, roles reversed, he'd be swimming more than a little upstream himself.
……………….
Also, there are teams that point fingers and win. When I was a kid, the early-70's A's and middle-70's Bronx Zoo didn't hesitate to get feline with each other.
.
=== Lemons Into Lemonade Dept. ===
But if I were Kenji Johjima, I wouldn't even consider returning to this organization. If I were him, behind the scenes, quietly, I would send my agent to Bill Bavasi and DEMAND a trade RIGHT NOW. Not that the front office appears to be obsessed with the subject of fairness for Kenji Johjima.
All Kenji has ever done was work his tail off, keep his mouth shut, and give thanks for being a Seattle Mariner. He doesn't need this stuff.
You know who needs a catcher? The Cincinnati Reds. Johjima would hit .300/.340/.500 in that park, for way less than Varitek money.
What does the lineup look like with Junior and Clement in it?
……………….
And man, could this ballclub use Erik Bedard.
Cheers,
Dr D












April 19th, 2008 at 1:52 pm Quote
I will say one thing.
Before the M’s brought Johjima over, there were a lot of field-level people who guaranteed us that a Japanese catcher would never work out.
They were absolutely right. I now understand what they meant. They were just getting there ahead of me.
……………….
There are orgs in which Kenji Johjima would work out. He should be traded to one of them, immediately. I’ll bet you the Reds pitchers would be glad to have him.
April 19th, 2008 at 2:25 pm Quote
I agree with you, Doc. Kenji should seek a trade immediately. I wonder what John and Mel had to say about these.
Before Ichiro signed for an extention. Secretly I was hoping he’d go somewhere else, where he’d be more appreciated….
April 19th, 2008 at 2:28 pm Quote
Good to see you Leaf :- )
Ichiro and Johjima both evidence the patience of Job, going to work day after day in an office which seems to offer few legitimate friends.
But then, in fairness, both realize that it isn’t a lot different for Americans playing NPB…
Japanese players are great from our standpoint as fans. They’re almost like automatons in their correctness and their work ethics.
……………….
You have any thoughts Leaf as to cities/orgs that would receive Johjima *warmly*? Is Toronto one of them? They need a catcher real bad.
Johjima, Batista, and Juan Ramirez for Shaun Marcum? :- )
April 19th, 2008 at 2:45 pm Quote
Thanks for this thread Doc.
The PC police go nuts on Clemen’s playful comment, and real racist stuff like this gets a free pass.
Washburn has a declining fastball, mediocre stuff, and yet is showing better peripherals this year.. I’ve got NO respect for the dude. Or Dickey for that matter.
April 19th, 2008 at 2:50 pm Quote
Absolutely.
This what drives me crazy about PC in America. If they were legitimately concerned they would speak when there was actually an issue.
I find it ironic that sometimes some “PC police” come in to call you on some “anti-PC” word… and yet where are they now?
I’m not going tolerate any idiots getting on Doc’s case, this thread is proof enough that he “gets it”.
April 19th, 2008 at 2:58 pm Quote
Definetly. Being half American and half Japanese, and having lived in both countries, I’m sensitive to the issue from both sides..have read “Gotta have Wa”? It used to be even worse in Japan.
That said, things like this NEED to be called when they happen.
April 19th, 2008 at 2:59 pm Quote
DrDetecto wrote:
MAN Doc…I sincerely hope you’re kidding. There’s NO WAY I’d give up Batista AND JC Ramirez for Marcum…let alone those two plus Johjima. That’s a TERRIBLE trade.
April 19th, 2008 at 3:02 pm Quote
This isn’t racism, guys. This is a philosophical war. And frankly, I think it’s very wrong to throw the term racism around unless you have darned good evidence that the conflict is caused directly by the ethnicity of the man. The Mariners are a strongly traditional organization and Johjima is not traditional. It’s as simple as that. If we had a white catcher who was not traditional in his pitch calling, the same stuff would be happening.
April 19th, 2008 at 3:04 pm Quote
No, it wouldn’t be happening. And thats precisely the problem.
April 19th, 2008 at 3:12 pm Quote
I like Johjima, I think he’s a great “field general” or whatever you want to call a catcher who keeps a keen eye on the game going on around him. Personally, I don’t understand the point of pitchers complaining about bad calls by Joh, the ultimate decision is not his, it’s theirs. Though I don’t really see Dickey as a bad guy in the case of last night’s game - he realizes that FB was the wrong pitch, but he admitted it was his fault, not Johjima’s didn’t he? I don’t know what to say about Washburn, though. Pitchers and catchers need to have a relationship of some kind if they’re going to be en effective combination, IMO.
April 19th, 2008 at 3:17 pm Quote
#8
BTW Matt, I know you mean the best.. but if you aren’t put in a situation where you’re a “foreigner” in a country (or have a significant other thats a foreigner), you probably aren’t going to even recognize that real racism exists.
You learn to recognize “real” racism, from the PC, anal, gotcha! type of nonsense pretty quick..Clemens is alright by me, Washburn definetly is NOT.
I’ll forever have respect for Doc for calling this out.. This was my EXACT reaction to this, but its not something that resonates if I (or Ice, or Naka-san) point it out.
April 19th, 2008 at 3:37 pm Quote
When has Ichiro gotten trash-talked by his teammates?
April 19th, 2008 at 3:40 pm Quote
BTW it seems only mediocre pitchers (admittedly most of our staff) make the callouts.
April 19th, 2008 at 4:04 pm Quote
taro wrote:
No, it wouldn’t be happening. And thats precisely the problem.
How in the heck do you know that, taro? Are you almighty and all seeing?
April 19th, 2008 at 4:07 pm Quote
Um…most of our staff is mediocre, Fett?
I don’t think that’s true.
Taro…you can spout off about how I’ll “never understand racism” all you want…you don’t know me or anything about what experiences I’ve had, and you aren’t omnipotent. This team is RUN by JAPANESE businessmen…why would they tolerate outright racism among their player ranks? It’s a culture war…it has NOTHING to do with despising a man for his ethnicity.
April 19th, 2008 at 4:11 pm Quote
Incidentally, the Mariners have done nothing but treat Ichiro with respect…changed management largely due to his urging…made him the face of the franchise…dedicated idols in his name (a bobblehead doll every year). No one has ever thrown Ichiro under a bus…no one has ever blamed him for Mariner losses (unless you count TopCat at MarinerCentral, but he’s nuts…even he would admit that).
Johjima isn’t the victim of racism…Johjima is the victim of a major battle being fought over the “right way to play”…it’s that simple.
April 19th, 2008 at 4:14 pm Quote
SABRMatt wrote:
how do you?
April 19th, 2008 at 4:19 pm Quote
If you can produce some quotes of Dan Wilson getting ripped for calling a bad pitch I’d like to hear it. Of course, I suppose it’s possible that Danny Boy never made a mistake.
April 19th, 2008 at 4:24 pm Quote
SABRMatt wrote:
a key point here is what ‘racism’ means. i don’t think doc’s suggesting that washburn “despises” johjima for his ethnicity. he’s just saying that the cultural difference is enough to cause washburn to cop out of according johjima the default respect for a teammate. he can do that without demanding that joh drink out of separate water fountains or whatever.
whether that’s really the reason for the bus-chuck, of course, is open to examination. but what other possible reason is there? doc says he’s never seen anything like this, and offhand i can’t think that i have either.
April 19th, 2008 at 4:45 pm Quote
finally got the discussion I wanted.
:watches as the POVs have at each other:
April 19th, 2008 at 4:51 pm Quote
1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jap
JPN would be a better abbreviation or do you want to make offence to my country people Doc?
2. Joh wanted the pitch inside but Dickey’s pithc went more to the middle. Se post at MC.
http://www.marinercentral.com/forum/index.php?s=&showtopic=613&view=findpost&p=15623
http://www.marinercentral.com/forum/index.php?s=&showtopic=613&view=findpost&p=15638
2. Joh’s quote to Japanese media:
“If there was a regret it was calling for the FB on 1-2 count to Hunter. I did not expect that he was sitting on a pitch inside.”
Here you see that Joh is protecting Dickey and not saying that the pitch was more in the middle.
Joh’s philosophy of a catcher is:
“Make the pitcher comfortable.”
“Take the blame if it makes the pitcher comfortabe.”
April 19th, 2008 at 4:56 pm Quote
1. Ichiro, Joh, Sasaki, etc. get treated like kings in face-up interaction with the brass. The problem comes when they get slimed by Hargrove, Washburn, etc., with the thinly-veiled MLB(TM) baloney.
In the 06-07 offseason, a group of pitchers sort of co-aligned to try to convince people that Johjima would never be a real MLB (TM) catcher. The brass is super nice to Kenji face-up, but what exactly did they do about his work environment? Why are we still reading this baloney in the papers?
…………….
2. Ichiro doesn’t get trashed by his teammates because a) he plays his SteppinFetchit cards right. Head down, middle of the pack, etc. and b) he’s a much better player than anybody else. Ichiro starts all the All-Star games which his teammates watch on TV.
Ichiro would have loved to have said those Japanese-language interview things in the clubhouse, but of course can’t — because he’s the Jap there.
Let Ichiro stand up in Sal Bando, Thurman Munson style, tell his teammates they need to work harder, and see what happens to him.
April 19th, 2008 at 4:58 pm Quote
Just the opposite, my friend — I am illustrating the unspoken attitude of others, with the idea of underlining the offense that is being given to your people.
It would be as though the most American-friendly lawyer in your country wrote an article headlined, “Ban the gaijin!” with respect to Roberto Petagine, in an effort to illustrate the injustice being done to him.
……………….
John Lennon wrote “Woman Is The Nigger Of The World,” not intending to give offense to minorities, but intending to try to help white males understand a problem. It was (as he saw it) an uncompromising rebuke of injustice.
April 19th, 2008 at 5:03 pm Quote
Right.
The day you see Burke, or Wilson, or anybody else like that thrown under the bus after a game, let me know.
It doesn’t happen and the REASON it doesn’t happen, is because of the unwritten rule about being in it together.
Ichiro and Johjima are not included in the “us vs them” code.
…………………….
I am not saying the American M’s are overtly KKK racist. They aren’t.
But Americans generally are not friendly towards Asians, and that especially includes the PC police.
We fear the hyper-competence of the Japanese and Koreans. Also, we hate the things that are truly different about them, such as their “sink or swim” attitude, their attitudes towards men/women and family loyalty, their contempt for the lazy, etc etc.
We are hostile towards Asians who interact with us on THEIR own terms. As long as they fake being Americans and keep their mouths shut about what they do better than us, we get along okay.
……………………
Americans at field level tolerate Ichiro and Johjima as long as they keep their mouths shut and don’t try to truly integrate their way of doing things into our community.
I’m not saying the M’s have ugly hearts or anything like that. They are simply reflecting the attitudes of Americans towards the Japanese and Koreans, and the guiltiest are those who believe themselves to be PC.
April 19th, 2008 at 5:03 pm Quote
Doc,
Your DOV goggles are completely dialed in on this one.
I’ve seen this exact sort of racism in a workplace where there were lots of asians working for an exclusively white management team. It was usually subtle, but it was exactly this type of thing where the white employee would talk smack or denigrate or undermine a fellow asian employee, in a manner and degree that did not apply to their white co-workers. To be fair, the asians may have been doing the same thing, that I wouldn’t know… but of course the (white) managers held the hammer.
Dickey and Wash shock me with their comments… In the macho world of baseball jocks, they’re whining like babies. They seriously need to think about what they’re saying and take some responsibility for the pitches that they *chose* to throw.
April 19th, 2008 at 5:07 pm Quote
Bingo.
The hostility is directed towards that which (1) is foreign, and (2) affects our lives in any way.
That we regard ourselves as “tolerant” is the great satire of American politics today. Very few people genuinely respect those who are different than they are.
Americans are not friendly towards the Japanese, as the Mariners are not friendly towards Johjima. Not when a Japanese person is interacting with us on his own terms.
April 19th, 2008 at 5:10 pm Quote
Maybe racism maybe not, how can we tell without being around the clubhouse daily to see?
These events might suggest something but of themselves they are not proof.
Certainly is a copout by the pitchers, the ball is in their hands and they are the ones throwing it, they can shake off a call anytime unless the manager calls for it and even then they can “miss” the target.
We don’t know how management is handling this either. We do know one of Jo’s biggest detracters is now playing for the Phils!
April 19th, 2008 at 5:13 pm Quote
Thanks Taro. Means a lot my friend. Perhaps you could mediate for me with Dr. N ;- )
…………………
PC anti-racism is NOT, IMHO, motivated by any real concern for injustice. It is an attempt to leverage white guilt so as to move forward a set of political agendas. Where injustice actually occurs that does not advance the agenda, PC policemen are typically uninterested.
…………………
Christian (or traditional American, or Buddhist open-hearted, or whatever) justice is, or should be, genuinely concerned with true unfairness wherever it occurs.
Kenji Johjima isn’t exactly living a Kunta Kinte life, but he has definitely put up with a lot of unfriendliness. It doesn’t sit right with me, because Kenji is doing the best he can.
April 19th, 2008 at 5:15 pm Quote
#25 Muskie -
Sure.
It’s a subtle thing — the rules don’t apply quite the same way to the Asians. You wouldn’t dream of saying a certain thing to a white (or black) female in the office, that you are free to say about this other guy.
And the reason is, we just don’t feel that friendly towards the Asians. They’re different, and they’re vaguely threatening in their competence.
April 19th, 2008 at 5:18 pm Quote
1. It’s discussion rather than a lawsuit with punitive damages applicable.
2. I’m not talking about 1950’s Mississippi racism. That is not occurring.
3. What is happening is, Johjima is very obviously suffering a hostile work environment. That is beyond dispute, and has been since he got here. (Actually since before he got here; a lot of people tried to deter the M’s bringing him in, saying that a Japanese catcher would never work out in the majors.)
4. Whether that lack of friendliness and normal team camaraderie is partially due to the fact that he is Japanese, is the proposition I lay out for discussion.
April 19th, 2008 at 5:25 pm Quote
Thinking out loud…
I wonder, how would Trey Hillman handle this situation? I expect McLaren to do little or nothing, but really this is where he should use all his power to quash the backstabbing, IMHO.
How long until we have an asain-american manager in MLB? Closest so far… Kim Ng. How long did it take after Jackie Robinson before there was an African-American manager? When was the first Hispanic manager hired?
Taro, Dr. N… what do you think McLaren should do?
April 19th, 2008 at 5:28 pm Quote
:- ) I think Yamauchi-san would believe that I was kidding…
Bavasi isn’t in a position to deal Johjima without Lincoln going straight to Yamauchi and explaining why. I’d like to see that discussion…
More interesting would be if Johjima himself demanded a trade, and they took that to Yamauchi, who could reply with a Matsuzaka-like banishment.
…………………
Shaun Marcum is emerging as one of the fine young SP’s in the AL, under club control for several more years (IIRC). The Jays probably view him about the way I view Brandon Morrow.
Johjima is now in the middle of his walk year; Batista is in essence a dump; who do you think Toronto would take as the third player in the deal?
Giving them Lowe would be kind of entertaining, context considered :- )
April 19th, 2008 at 5:41 pm Quote
BTW Taro-san I’ve got work the next several days… can I hand you my personal baton on this one… keep the students at their desks ;- )
April 19th, 2008 at 5:46 pm Quote
That’s not an argument. Dan Wilson made mistakes I’m sure, but he called the game in the stereotypical American (TM) way…if he made a bad call, he would be the guy saying so. Not saying he is any better than Johjima…just saying the pitchers are less likely to have been uncomfortable with his pitch calling sequences because he thought the same way they did about how to work hitters. It’s not a japanese thing…it’s a Japanese BASEBALL thing. The game is just different enough over there to cause tension.
April 19th, 2008 at 5:51 pm Quote
I appreciate what you’re saying Matt … there is a lot of truth to the suggestion that it starts with a baseball-cultural disconnect.
………………
But American players don’t go to the press on each other, game after game. The way that the pitchers treat Johjima publicly is at issue here.
It’s not just that the quotes are “showing up” Johjima. The quotes illustrate that Johjima is shunned on a personal level — denied the family loyalty, the “us vs. them” benefits, that every other Mariner in that clubhouse enjoys.
He doesn’t carry a “teammate” card. And that goes to the issue of prejudice and hostility.
April 19th, 2008 at 5:53 pm Quote
He’s shunned on a personal level because he is not an MLB(TM) style player. Not because he is Japanese.
April 19th, 2008 at 5:55 pm Quote
Just generally, Doc, I think EXTREME care needs to be taken when throwing around terms like racism. Racism carries a distinct connotation and implied meaning…racism is HATRED…not just discomfort. Racism deals with ethnicity, not with technical baseball philosophy. There is not one Mariner who would tell Kenji he is not welcome to join their table on a night out…at least, you can’t go around claiming there is unless you have some darned good evidence.
April 19th, 2008 at 5:55 pm Quote
#36 … Jarrod Washburn feels like he can go to the press and humiliate Kenji Johjima because Kenji Johjima (unlike Jamie Burke) cannot walk over to Washburn’s locker and punch him in the teeth, like he so richly deserves (in terms of the jock’s locker room code).
Johjima is a helpless target and Jarrod Washburn is great with that.
The reason that Johjima is a helpless target, is because he is Japanese.
……………….
#37 … As you know, I don’t “throw around” terms like racism. I use them rarely. Like, only when they apply. :- )
As to the dinner-partners thing, Taro can probably take it from here. ;- ) Appreciate you holding down the other side Matty.
April 19th, 2008 at 6:04 pm Quote
I’m sorry, but I’ve read and re-read the comments by the pitchers and I don’t see anything beyond a losing pitcher blaming himself for throwing a pitch. A pitch that Johjima called, to be sure, but both guys blamed themselves for not shaking off the pitch.
I have to say I’ve read comments like this millions of times by losing pitchers, the vast majority of them having thrown their fateful meatball to a white catcher. So I don’t see racism here. I also have to say that I am not privy to clubhouse interactions among a demographic group that cannot historically be termed progressive, so I don’t have a perfect perspective.
Still, on face value, I regard these quotes as pretty innocuous explanation of pivotal moments in games. Not equatable in my mind to throwing anyone under a bus.
And Matt, you need to keep your neck hairs down. Your tone frequently borders on insulting and disrespect.
April 19th, 2008 at 6:21 pm Quote
Thanks for your take ‘Bro.
This is probably the first time I’ve been this far away from where you were on something :- )
What would you consider to be blaming Johjima? That’s pitcher-speak for, gimme another catcher and I win that game.
……………
Both Washburn and Dickey threw in the quote about it was up to me, yada yada, to soften it enough so that it wasn’t completely scandalous…
You’ve got a couple years’ worth of backstory on Johjima here, too, right?
April 19th, 2008 at 6:27 pm Quote
1) Id do that deal for Marcum in a heartbeat
2) I agree with Doc, that this punk Washburn feels he can throw Joh under the bus as often as he wants because Joh is a Japanese player who isnt going to come up and get in his face, due to the way the Japanese player handles himself.. I would love to see him make a comment like that about an AJ Pierzynski or someone that would get into a fist fight in the locker room with him..
I cant stand Washburn.. i hope his arm falls off soon.. mainly because this is the 2nd or 3rd time he’s blamed the catcher for his ineffective pitching..
Dickey, Im gonna give him a pass.. i dont think he’s a schmuck like Washburn.. and i really dont think he meant to put any blame on Joh..
April 19th, 2008 at 6:33 pm Quote
‘nother good post NYM, would like to put it all in bold face.
And for the record, I’m not down on R.A. Dickey either … for him this was a one-time deal in frustration. Until it happens again. :- )
LOL on Pierzynski. But of course Washburn wouldn’t dare to diss AJ in the press, now would he?
April 19th, 2008 at 6:34 pm Quote
taro wrote:
this is a silly question.
we’re all back at the PC police station, blasting AC/DC and tossing back RC colas.
April 19th, 2008 at 6:36 pm Quote
#43, LOL! I like Wily’s touch for lightening the mood.
Maybe he should let Burke call Washburn’s games from now on, and DH Joh? :- )
Oh wait, there we go… 2nd inning, 86 fastball splashed for a double by Hunter, 89 fastball for a single by, um, Juan Rivera, 86 fastball crushed 380 feet and 9 miles high by Mathis for the SF and early Angels lead…
Fine, let Washburn lose his games with Burke. I’d much rather hear the “story of my career” interviews.
April 19th, 2008 at 6:38 pm Quote
Did anyone notice Burke is playing tonight?
I guess Washburn is now managing the team?
April 19th, 2008 at 6:50 pm Quote
Matt… No, I do not know you or what you’ve been through, but just by reading your comments on this thread my guess is that you’re a white male and have lived in America all your life.. Theres NOTHING wrong with that; its just means that odds are, you probably haven’t been subject to racism.
Racism isn’t always viewed in the extreme, like being called trash, Jap, or other name-calling, being spitted at, failing tests due to race and not competency (all of which wife has gone through).
What Washburn is doing to Johjima isn’t “extreme hate” racism. His racism is of the more subtle, and much more widely spread type.. He is treating Johjima as a lower-class person, because he knows he can get away with it. He is calling him out in the press, which he would NOT do to a “normal” MLBer no matter how much you try make excuses for him. Frankly, I don’t appreciate ANY tolerance of Washburn’s attitude towards Johjima on this issue.
There are people that think they can get away with treating my wife like a second-class citizen when I’m not around (generally looking down at, not including her in their “inner circle”, “this is how we do things here” mentality, Americans that are more agressive with Asians than they would be with a white person). And yet, when I’m around its like these people don’t exist.. Imagine that! I can’t even get into the kind of thing my wife went through at work (both with her salary and treatment).. THATS racism. I have ABSOLUTELY ZERO tolerance for this, and anybody that tries to pull that crap will hear from me.
April 19th, 2008 at 7:00 pm Quote
Racism or dumb-jockism? Dumb jocks like Washburn are all the same - they will pick on the person they deem the most defenseless. In this case, it’s the Japanese catcher with no posse in the clubhouse. If the catcher was a white guy with a type-B personality and no close associates in the clubhouse I suspect Washburn’s comments would be much the same.
Where are the vaunted “club-house” leaders in all this? Given that Dickey’s comments followed so closely after Washburn’s, I think it’s safe to assume that Ibanez, Beltre, Sexson, Vidro, Cairo, Putz and the all the “good clubhouse guys” have remained silent. That, to me, is the most damning part of this whole episode.
April 19th, 2008 at 7:19 pm Quote
You mean like Burke?
‘Sides, Johjima has a type-A personality, much more so than a typical Japanese person. Hes Japanese and just does not have status within the clubhouse. Also culturally, you do not put personal issues before personal responsibility.
Joh’s response to Washburn’s comments “I have a reason for every pitch I call,” is about as ticked off as you’ll hear an NPB player in the press.
Washburn should be ashamed of himself.
April 19th, 2008 at 7:21 pm Quote
So it’s Kenji’s fault Washburn suck’s? That’s it frackin brilliant washturd!!!
April 19th, 2008 at 7:24 pm Quote
Interesting how Boston went out of their way to welcome Matsuzaka in the clubhouse (it was CLEAR that the organization made sure he was accepted in the clubhouse from DAY ONE).
Compare that to what Ichiro/Johjima go through. If it were me I’d leave the second I got a chance.
April 19th, 2008 at 7:35 pm Quote
I hear ya man..nobody has called Washburn out yet, which is why this is being allowed to continue.
April 19th, 2008 at 7:36 pm Quote
I thought about that, too, Doc. I’m usually riding right beside you, it seems.
I guess it’s mostly that for me it’s a long leap from observation to conclusion.
April 19th, 2008 at 7:36 pm Quote
And Doc, thanks again for bringing this up. I’m sure Naka-san understood after you explained.
April 19th, 2008 at 7:40 pm Quote
Zum-bro’…I can understand your perspective.
If Washburn regularly blamed his catcher for his performances, than ya he’d just irresponsible.
I’ll be waiting for Washburn to blame Burke tonight for his perfomance…anybody think this is going to happen?
April 19th, 2008 at 9:16 pm Quote
I’ve enjoyed reading the debate today… one quick thing I’d like to comment on… whether there is racism in play or not, I won’t debate… I’m honestly not sure (I’d have to go back and see if Jarrod acted like a bum with the Halos). HOWEVER, I’ve gone back and read the the post-game comments from last night and Jarrod’s last start and two things seem very clear.
1) The tone of Dickey’s comments are very different from Jarrod’s. Dickey seems genuinely mad at himself.
2) Joh’s response to both pitchers seem to indicate he took the comments differently as well
April 19th, 2008 at 9:21 pm Quote
I think there’s a strong element of that too Grizzly. Point well taken.
This generation has grown up with a pretty accepting attitude towards skin color as such. I don’t doubt that Washburn would marry an Asian girl, for example.
……………..
That said, I roll a lot of things in here….
The nauseating MLB (TM) backstory of the last five years … the tension about Johjima’s, Ichiro’s, and Sasaki’s work ethics … the code that prevents Ichiro or any other Japanese player from being a leader in the clubhouse, which would NOT apply to Junior, to Edgar or any other ethnic group … the anti-Asian bias that I see in F-500 which echoes point-for-point with the M’s… etc.
It’s more than Washburn snapping Joh in the fanny with a wet towel ’cause Joh won’t punch back. Over the last five years, it’s been a thinly-veiled subdual of the Japanese Way.
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I don’t think anybody inside or outside the clubhouse walks up to a Japanese or Korean man and smirks. But I do think that when a man begins acting authentically Japanese or Korean, we become first uncomfortable and then subconsciously hostile.
Not sure whether Taro and I are communicating very clearly.
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But yeah. A guy like Washburn will pick on people ’cause he thinks he can get away with it. From where he sits, he probably thinks that’s the extent of it.
April 19th, 2008 at 9:23 pm Quote
‘nother good pernt.
…………..
And I was braced for a deterioration of the intellectual exchange on THIS one.
But it seems there’s little limit to the DOV/MC community’s capacity for behaving like adults :- )
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Funniest post, #41. NYM said in about three sentences what we were all trying to say in about 10,000 words…
April 19th, 2008 at 9:52 pm Quote
Doc,
Thanks for taking this issue to a deeper level. When I posted previously about Washburn’s comment, I was treating this as Washburn not taking responsibility for his own results and blaming Joh. I would expect the team leaders to “correct” Washburn. Now that I have heard your take on this, I am looking for the team to “correct” this situation. I have a very low tolerance for this kind of behavior (racially motivated). If this is a Mariner attribute and it is allowed to persist, I will no longer be a fan.
April 19th, 2008 at 9:57 pm Quote
Interesting debate. I’ll take the position that I disagree with. This always helps me sort out my thoughts.
The assertion is that the comments by Wash and R.A. to the media with regards to Kenji’s sub-par pitch calling occurred because he’s Japanese and is indicative of an undercurrent of racism in the Mariner’s clubhouse.
Preposterous.
Fact: The club is owned by Japanese business men. Do you really think that a consortium of this magnitude would not be aware of ANYTHING along these lines? And if they were would put up with it? The argument has been established that Bavasi doesn’t have over-riding control of the personnel, the management does. If so, the management would take decisive action if this undercurrent were present. OR the Japanese business men don’t know beans about their millions of dollars investment. You tell me which is the more absurd argument?
Fact: This club was the FIRST to sign an NPB position starter in the MLB despite the screaming from the sidelines.
If the current assertion doesn’t make sense, let’s insert a new one to see if it makes more sense.
Assertion: The gnashing of teeth over Johjima’s ability to play in the MLB is based on his NPB style, not the slant of his eyes.
This to me makes a lot more sense. Prove me wrong.
April 19th, 2008 at 10:10 pm Quote
I’m not trying to come at you Majic my friend. But have you ever been in a locker room? That’s key here.
A question to start with: how much control do you think that Howard Lincoln, or any executive above field manager, has over what happens in the CLUBHOUSE?
Are you under the impression that the VP’s are welcome in the clubhouse, much less having any influence over what goes on there, beyond companywide “no girlfriends in the clubhouse” type general policies?
It’s hard enough for John McLaren to steer the clubhouse ship 5 degrees portside, much less for some guy in a tie to tell JJ Putz who to pie in the face.
………………..
Everything up to the clubhouse door, the M’s brass controls that, and it’s all extremely Japanese-friendly. Past the clubhouse door is a whole other world, with John McLaren hanging on by his fingernails to keep the inmates from taking over the asylum. :- )
We don’t mean that as an insult to the pro athletes. But those dudes are a different breed.
April 19th, 2008 at 10:18 pm Quote
.
We remember by the way when the Mariners traded Mark Langston… Jim Lefebvre made a big public deal out of “I want you guys accepting the new players, just like you were accepted when you were new.”
It was a very strong manager and a very weak group of players, and that worked with only limited results.
It takes a VERY strong manager — a Piniella, a Larussa — to even try to get away with telling the 25 ballplayers who to accept and who not to accept. NYM will tell you for example that it’s not Joe Torre who decided whether Carl Pavano sat in a good seat on the bus. It was Mike Mussina and Derek Jeter.
Clubhouse politics have a dramatic 100-year history in baseball dating back to Huggins and Ruth and way before … and the participants in the clubhouse dramas are not the guys wearing sportcoats and gray hair…
April 19th, 2008 at 10:23 pm Quote
.
Good to hear from you Michael.
Bear in mind that Lincoln, Armstrong, and even McLaren are no doubt appalled by the Good Ole Boy-izm that relegates Ichiro, Sasaki, Johjima, etc to the back of the bus…
Managing those XXY athletes :- ) is obviously a daunting task at the best of times…
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But it would not shock us if, this now having become a big issue, McLaren called Washburn in and told him c’mon, that’s not the way baseball works, we’re a 25-man team here.
It could even slow Washburn down — publicly — for a while.
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Or ….
The Mariners could get tired of Washburn’s excuses, swap him to the Royals with a few million bucks, and get on with the Morrow train? :- )
April 19th, 2008 at 10:27 pm Quote
Thanks, Doc.
You’re correct, I haven’t been in a clubhouse.
However I think it’s also naive to assume that management has zero influence on those they’re investing in.
Perhaps I just don’t have the requisite experience, but I close my eyes and try to picture myself in situations like this, how I’d react.
If my boss’ boss pulls me aside and says, “Maj, my man, you’re doing a bang up job. But I’m concerned about A, B, and C…” I’m listening and listening hard. … Aw, heck, I’ll concede this point.
The issue here is not that Johjima is Japanese, it’s his NPB style. You hit it on the head when you said that different=uncomfortable. The difference is not race, but style.
The stated issue is that Wash wouldn’t dare bring these quotes about a white catcher. I disagree. Wash brought the quotes because he’s frustrated and is taking it out on Joh the NPB’er. Superiority complex to be sure, but not racism.
April 19th, 2008 at 10:46 pm Quote
I think it’s 100+ years of baseball to assume that non-ballplayers have close to zero influence over the clubhouse ;- )
But yeah. You see what we’re sayin’.
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There are those here who think that Washburn might go off on a white catcher he thought was easy to pick on. I respect the point of view. There’s got to be a strong element of simple dumb-jock’ism as Grizzly put it.
Post #56 explains why I ascribe more than that only …. or was it #43, or #31, or … :- )
April 19th, 2008 at 10:46 pm Quote
The Seattle Mariners are, on paper, owned mostly by Nintendo of AMERICA, a wholly American subsidiary of Nintendo K.K. At the same time, the ownership group, The Baseball Club of Seattle, is also mostly American, with only a passing presence of the Japanese Nintendo K.K. In other words, although Nintendo owns most of the Mariners, they are outnumbered by a number of American owners in the minority ownership group. The Nintendo portion is also heavily represented by Howard Lincoln, who himself owns a share of the Marinrs.
At the same time, expecting ownership to know every facet of the company, down to the field level, is mostly a pipe dream. The Mariners are nothing like the Red Sox or Yankees, which have ownership groups that are heavily involved with the on-field product. Yamauchi, for the duration of his ownership and his current status of de facto owner, is also well known for his complete laissez faire attitude with the Mariners, aside from the Japanese players. This stems from the fact he’s not much of a baseball fan.
—–
On the racism end, the point of the matter is that regardless of the non-issue active racism, the issue is passive racism. Washburn is taking advantage of the fact that Johjima can’t and won’t fight back. Johjima, if typical of most Japanese players and individuals, is disciplined and places the team ahead of him as long as it makes the team better. This is both cultural as it is a byproduct of his lack of English skills.
What DrD is suggesting is a far more insidious form of racism that is much harder to detect and is not addressed in the public spectrum. It is the idea that racism isn’t merely bias and hate rooted in the difference of the appearance and culture of the individual, but also the failure to recognize cultural and personal differences, as well as the failure to extend courtesies and equal opportunity.
The issue here is that Washburn would NEVER throw a fellow MLBer under a bus. It’s against clubhouse code the sort of thing players are shipped out for and given biohazard labels. But NO ONE, outside of the blogosphere, is recognizing the fact that Washburn is throwing Johjima under the bus and not extending the same courtesy that all other MLB players enjoy: no sniping in the clubhouse. And that is the crime.
April 19th, 2008 at 10:49 pm Quote
.
Thanks mucho Ice … who, for those just joining us, is one of our three resident NPB super-experts (Taro, Dr. Naka) …
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One thing that is worth noting here is that some white people here buy my take, and some don’t… which is fine…
But as far as I can tell, just about 100% of Japanese people are going to back every word as long overdue.
That’s interesting to think about.
April 19th, 2008 at 10:54 pm Quote
This is a point I’d pretty much overlooked.
Boston’s management did take decisive steps towards DiceK’s integration into the clubhouse. But as IceX mentions, Boston’s (NYY’s, Oak’s) execs are much more willing to “take on” their ballplayers, even and especially the leaders.
There is a real rapport and understanding between Varitek, Ortiz, Schilling & Co. on the one hand, and Epstein & Co. on the other. With winning being the understanding.
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Not to rip the M’s, but the front-office / player dynamic is quite a bit different from that in Boston and Oakland. Which contributes to the M’s obvious difficulty in getting a clubhouse atmosphere that resembles Boston’s.
April 19th, 2008 at 11:22 pm Quote
With regard to racism itself, I personally have never really faced it or have never really let it slow me down.
On that end, I’m what the Japanese would call ganko, extremely headstrong and almost overconfident.
For most of my elementary days, I never really cared nor acknowledged my Japanese end. I subscribed more to the Mr. Rogers “you are special” type of, one and only one ideal. I probably heavily benefitted from my private school that encouraged independence, acceptance and self-direction. So I ended up a lone wolf and that never really changed through MS/HS. College brought on a new level of self-confidence that’s led to who I am now. Selfless in working for my students, headstrong with my beliefs (I’m personally exceptionally conservative, but extremely liberal to everyone not me), and just chill at the end of the day.
On numerous occasions, I’ve used the race card to leverage situations to my benefit, but I end up feeling I’ve just benefitted from a a gimmick, so to speak. I also have no particular disdain from terms like Jap, since to me that’s like calling a spade a spade. Big deal. The Anti-Mr. Roger’s “words hurt” credo to the extreme. “Sticks and stones can break my bones but words will never hurt me BECAUSE I WON’T LET THEM.” But it’s really a luxury to be able to act like this, as it isn’t something that’s available to everyone and it baffles many of my Japanese-American friends.
At the same time, you’d be surprised how flagrantly racist International Students are in the entirely faux sense. Jap, nigger, Jew, chink, Nazi. You name it, they use it. But the interesting part, to me, is that the terms are so marginalized that they carry the punch of a feather. Maybe that’s how far language should go? I dunno.
April 20th, 2008 at 12:52 am Quote
#65
Ice, you did a much better job of explaining it than I did. Interesting way of defining “passive racism”, which is what we’re talking about here with Washburn:
April 20th, 2008 at 12:58 am Quote
“Washburn felt the 2-2 pitch to Aybar was a strike and that the teams would still be playing a 1-1 game had umpire Mike Reilly given him the call. “
That’s the quote from Washburn in the latest game, so maybe Washburn’s weakness is blaming someone else beside himself, not necessarily related to racism. Guillen had problems with Washburn when they were teammates on the Angels right? I don’t think it was racial issues so much as Guillen insisting that his teammates play their heart out, but I’m not sure.
Look I read the statements, I have followed the discussion about Johjima on this site in the past and I am not at all ready to call it racism.
I have spent about twenty years of my life in various Asian countries including six year plus in Japan. I can’ stand racism in any form. I have been the victim of it as well as seen people from my own race reflect a racist attitude toward Asians. But I have to agree with Matt, which I don’t always do.
These statements by both Washburn and Dickey could just as easily be taken as putting blame on themselves for not asking for another pitch. Nearly every losing pitcher is forced to give an interview to the press and could easily have something come out different than the way it was intended. Even if they were subtly blaming Johjima, it does not have to be racism, it could be the different baseball culture they come from, just like Matt says. Even if Johjima is ticked off by Washburn’s statement, he may not view it as racism but rather as Washburn being immature and not taking responsibility for his own fate.
Hasegawa, Sasaki, and Ichiro all have played a sinificant number of years for the Mariners. In fact, if I recall correctly, all three of them signed a second contract with the Mariners. There have been numerous blacks and Latinos on the team. A clubhouse that fostered racist undertowns in those conditions would soon implode with some amount of public knowledge IMHO. However, all the non Asian players except Yuni have grown up with the way the game is played in America (at least while they were in MLB, the minors or in Mariner baseball academies). So it seems if there is anything to read into this, it is more likely to be what Matt says, a difference in baseball culture, not a racist attitude against Asians themselves.
In the end, I don’t think there is enough evidence for any of us to tell whether Washburn and others are subtly being racist or even if Johjima views it as racism. I do agree with Matt that we should be careful in raising the allegation of racism without more evidence.
It would be interesting for a semi insider like Geoff Baker to weigh into this since he could possibly get some reaction from players, perhaps anonymously for more frank answers.
April 20th, 2008 at 1:01 am Quote
A well-stated counter H&R. Thanks!
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Again, I don’t believe that Ken Griffey Jr. or Edgar Martinez suffered any significant prejudice against them, despite Junior’s occasional talking around the subject.
And am not saying that it’s Jim Crow society in the M’s clubhouse by any means. It obviously isn’t.
What little racism there is in America, relative to other countries and other eras, is now found most strongly w/r/t Asians IMHO. The nature of the prejudice that we assert is discussed at length above.
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If Geoff Baker interviewed the ballplayers on the subject, he’s not going to hear anything but vehement denials … from 23 players. I’m not sure how much weight that would have :- )
True that NPB players have re-upped with the M’s. My assumption, maybe incorrect, is that these Japanese players assume that The American Experience would be pretty much the same everywhere in the majors. (if Roberto Petagine had no friends at Yakult or Yomiuri, would he likely move to Hanshin to find friends?)
We do know that Sasaki one day just waved his hand and went home, for whatever reason.
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Appreciate your cogent and effective rebuttal H&R.
April 20th, 2008 at 7:00 am Quote
In an attempt to balance the discussion, I’d like to point out that racism, whether passive or active, is not the exclusive province of white America. I think this is part of what frustrates white Americans when this subject comes up. You can bet that if the roles were reversed, and a white American went to Japan to play a professional sport quintessentially native to that country, one with a long history and tradition, that he would experience EXACTLY the same thing. It would be expressed differently, in the unique ways that Japanese would do it, but it would be the same beast.
Best illustration of this? Read about the experiences of POWs when in the hands of their enemies of a different race, totally defenseless. Ahh, THEN the true nature of the beast comes out, because there is nothing to check it.
So when we talk about Washburn and Dickey and Johjima, if we understand what I have just said, we are not talking about “white American” bashing. We’re talking about “human” bashing. This kind of innate racism is ONLY subdued when it is challenged, and even then it is just driven underground and gradually controlled.
ALL powerful societies dominated by a single race are racist. This includes Japan, China, Germany, Russia, and yes, America. It is only when they are FORCED by history and the results of their racism to modify their behavior and sublimate their impulses that they change. I say this as a white American conservative, a life-long student of history.
You see, we are quick to point the finger when we are the objects of racism. But we do not see things truly unless we acknowledge that we are also the subjects. In America, the discussion is a one-way street. Whites are fingered for prejudices towards all other races. But it is just as evident that the black race and the Latino race share a passionate prejudice against each other.
So why do I say all this? Because I think Doc is pointing out that Washburn (for sure) and Dickey (possibly) are saying these things because the culture in the Mariners clubhouse specifically, and American baseball generally has not yet made the cost high enough for such behavior. It is excused.
April 20th, 2008 at 7:37 am Quote
Speaking of racism in baseball I seem to remember some controversy a couple of years ago down in San Francisco when the term “lazy Latinos” was tossed about.
April 20th, 2008 at 8:21 am Quote
Yeah Matt. Washburn act like a “woofin’” jock who’s lost his ability to perform but doesn’t know how to handle it except blame anything and everything around him. While I think the subtle racism is likely part of the equation with Wash and Johjima (=blaming a teammate publicly is taboo, blaming an umpire is a time-honored tradition), it certainly isn’t all of it.
April 20th, 2008 at 9:32 am Quote
“What little racism there is in America, relative to other countries and other eras, is now found most strongly w/r/t Asians IMHO. The nature of the prejudice that we assert is discussed at length above.“
Some Arab / Moslem’s living in America might beg to differ with you at this point in our history. : ) But I get your larger point.
When I was still in University, a visiting professor gave a session to our entire freshman class. He had actually arrived about a week before and covertly talked to students and found out everything he could about the prejudices that existed on the campus. I will never ever forget the moment. He had hundreds of my classmates wound up like a bunch of Nazi youth with the statements he made from the stage. The session was broken up by school authorities and we were told to break up into classroms with professors to discuss what we had just seen. After that we were brought back to the same auditorium and the original professor came back to the stage and explained that the previous session had all been an act. He was an expert on social relations and went around doing this sort of thing in any organization that would invite him.
This isn’t the place to go into detail about this, but the main point he made from this session is that we should never ever allow other people to be de-humanized because of their differences. All it usually takes is for one person from the majority group to stand up for the minority that is being dehumanized and reason with the majority and the situation can usually be defused.
This is not near such a heated situation as I witnessed that day, but I do salute Dr. D for bringing the issue to our attention. Whether he is right or wrong in this case, it has initiated a positive discussion that should make us all a little bit more aware of the way all such issues should be resolved.
Believe me I am NOT a card carrying member of the Political Correct crowd. I personally believe we are at a more mature stage of our relations when we can laugh at our differences in a manner that doesn’t offend or dehumanize others.
April 20th, 2008 at 10:08 am Quote
Washburn has blamed himself; and he has blamed the umpire; and he has blamed Johjima. When has he ever blamed anyone else? Did he blame Wilkerson for a poor throw that allowed an extra run to score? Did he blame Burke? No he didn’t. He’s blaming only the people he feels he can get away with blaming.
Why does he feel he can get away with blaming Johjima, out of all his teammates? It’s because of all the reasons in the posts above. Johjima will not retaliate, and Johjima has been marginalized from the clubhouse fraternity, to a degree. This is due to his ethnicity and NPB background, and the whining and grumbling about NPB style of pitch calling that began the second Johjima signed with the M’s.
Except he’s not blaming anything and everything. He’s blaming the ref and himself and the one teammate that the clubhouse will allow him to blame.
Which is important to note… It’s not just Wash. As noted above, the right type of leader in the clubhouse wouldn’t let him get away with it.
April 20th, 2008 at 10:46 am Quote
I recall several incidents where Wash barked at teammates for playing poor defense behind him in the past. Nothing this year, but other than Wilky costing him a meaningless run last night, the club has played well behind him.
April 20th, 2008 at 10:53 am Quote
I really have to disagree with the statement that there is “little racism… in America, relative to other countries and other eras.” Racism has taken different forms over time, but still exists. I believe that the younger generation is/has grown up in a society that really pushes the racism = bad idea, but it is certainly not all that rare. Everyone has personal bigotries of one sort or another, they may not always be overt, but they exist nonetheless.
April 20th, 2008 at 11:21 am Quote
Leo…you’re right. There is racism in this coutnry. White hatred runs amok like never before. My people have been slandered and abused by PC thugs and by a coalition of every minority in a campaign of scope that few people recognize.
April 20th, 2008 at 12:10 pm Quote
The idea of “reverse discrimination” is kind of difficult to support IMO (at least, that’s what it seems like that’s what you’re mentioning, Matt). It seems that any ill feelings toward white people in general aren’t really directed toward the majority, but is rather a discrimination against those that discriminate. It’s pretty circular, but that’s why the discussion of racism is so tough to talk about/analyze. Certainly people can argue that PC thugs and whoever else do things that are, in one way or another, unfair to white people. But that usually leads to questions about affirmative action’s relevance in today’s society, which is a totally separate discussion. Sorry, I digress from the topic.
April 20th, 2008 at 2:34 pm Quote
Don’t agree…
The anti-white sentiments in this country have gone far beyond just those who are actually discriminating…they’re attacking people who anyone might possibly consider to be offending anyone…whether that was the intention or not…whether such thoughts existed in their minds or not. Unfortunately, that’s almost every white person in the country.
If you want an example…several idiots have called Dr. D a racist for no good reason.
April 20th, 2008 at 2:50 pm Quote
Again, my thanks amigos for the substance and style.
In honor of your impeccable behavior and logic, personally am dialing the Provocation Amp down to 7 and moving on. One of all y’all’s most impressive comments threads IMHO.
Feel free to follow up as desired … Dr D will resume regularly-scheduled programming next week, or that’s the plan :- )
April 21st, 2008 at 4:52 am Quote
I think zum-bro has it pegged. NEITHER of the quotes was actually an attack on Joh.
As to not remembering this happening before? I remember “nearly” word-for-word quotes like this on HUNDREDS (if not thousands) of occasions.
“I shouldn’t have thrown the change in that situation.”
“I should’ve known better than to try and sneak the FB by him on 1-2.”
“A curve was the wrong choice in that situation.”
I’ve heard this type of quote my entire life. The only real difference in both of these cases was that the pitchers made the mistake of actually mentioning Joh by name. In *EVERY OTHER CASE* where pitchers rue a pitch choice, **THE CATCHER CALLED FOR THE PITCH***.
As zumbro notes - in BOTH of these cases, both pitchers say **I** should have shaken him off. Dickey says “I was flogging **MYSELF**”. These are actually players who *ARE* taking responsibility for their actions. They stated quite directly that THEY had control over the situation and THEY failed to do what they should’ve.
The reality here is that by including Joh’s name in the quotes - which is a defacto acknowledgement that pitch-selection is an activity that is grounded in teamwork - both pitchers are accused of “throwing Joh under the bus.”
Well, one could just as easily say that every pitcher who has NOT mentioned his catcher by name in response to a similar question is insulting his catcher as being irrelevant to the process.
I am reluctant to get into the whole racism discussion, because much of it makes me angry - (and I don’t like me when I’m angry). The anger is in response to the (and this is MY perception) arrogance of anyone who believes they can determine the racist or non-racist content of a quote involving two people who they do not know personally, and have probably never even spoken to once.
Washburn could be a closet Nazi for all I know. But I’m certainly not going to leap any conclusions about his personal demons based on a single quote to a reporter when he did not say *ONE BAD WORD* about Joh.
If he had said something like “If that moron behind the plate could call a decent game,” then at least I’d be able to see some actual sign of dissension.
I’ll apologize for offending anyone for my next comment - but if you honestly believe that you can infer racism from these events, then I believe it is time to step back and re-examine your own personal filters and attempt to determine why you are looking so hard for it. We *ALL* tend to see things we are looking for - and I look for signs that I’ve wandered into someone else’s demon zone. I’m probably overreacting.
But, from my perspective, we have more evidence that the dinosaurs had a space program than Washburn or Dickey were exhibiting racism.
April 21st, 2008 at 5:08 am Quote
WELL SAID Sandy.
Thanks for continuing to be a voice of reason.
April 21st, 2008 at 9:04 am Quote
#84 … Sandy, how well did you follow the 2006-07 backstory on the Johjima-pitching staff war? Or the firefight within the M’s org previous to their bringing in a Japanese catcher?
Pitchers sometimes blame their catchers, yes, but there is a context here involving Washburn and others that goes back years now. Washburn extends the teammate code to every veteran in the locker room, as far as I can tell, except to Johjima.
As you know, I’m hardly the PC type, and hardly the guy who’s quick to ascribe the motivation of prejudice. But as mentioned before, on this Johjima topic you will see (1) white people split as to what’s going on, and (2) Japanese people unanimous as to what’s going on.
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There is one disconnect, with you and Zum-Bro’ and Matt, that definitely baffles me. You guys know the baseball culture, yet when Washburn says this:
For some reason, it is lost on you, how badly that comment breaks code? :- ) I’m mystified.
……………..
You guys say that pitchers do this all the time. Can you lay a couple of recent quotes on me that are analogous that that one?
Not, I threw the wrong pitch. Not, a friendly-but-frustrated “we weren’t on the same page with that pitch.” Rather, “I knew it was a bad pitch, but he called it, and that’s why we lost. We’d have won except for his call.”
………………
Washburn now feels carte blanche to do this to Johjima every time he loses a game. And it’s part of a pattern of hostility towards Johjima that extends to his first ST with Joh.
April 21st, 2008 at 10:32 am Quote
#84
Sandy, let me guess? You’re a white male that has lived all your life in America.
I’m not trying to offend you, but it seems unlikely to me that you’ve ever ‘had’ to face racism, and therefore have the luxury of not having to recognize it.
To be fair, I can’t deny the possiblity that Washburn is simply incredibly irresponsible and disrespectful to all of his teammates, and will continue to blame Burke personally for his bad outings. Let me know when it happens though. Its been two years, and Washburn has YET to blame his #2 catcher directly for a bad outing (this despite the fact that #2 catcher seems to catch Washburn MORE than Joh in past years).
Racism doesn’t come only in the form of racial hate (although that exist as well); work in Japan as a ‘gaijin’ salary-man and I’m sure your perspective would change.
In a real world situation, if Washburn tries to pull this crap I confront him about it. I am DEFINETLY NOT going to “filter” it, and allow him to continue acting in this manner. Best-case scenario he is treating me with grave disrespect as a teammate.
That’ll be something to look for if Burke is Washburn’s personal catcher now. We’ll see if he EVER directly blames Burke (as opposed to ump, his own decisions, etc.) this year. This has a reoccuring theme for the past 2 years, and I’m still waiting for Washburn to treat his #2 catcher in the same manner.
April 21st, 2008 at 10:55 am Quote
And granted I can understand those that are reluctant to “label” this as passive racism without clear 100% concrete evidence, despite the two-year patterns (not wanting to pitch to him, explicitely blaming him for losses while not blaming the #2 catcher, showing general agressiveness and lack of acceptance to him).
You can call it disrespect to another human being if you’d like. Washburn is disrespecting Johjima by not giving him ‘proper’ treatment as a fellow player. The reason he is targeting Joh is debatable I suppose (who knows maybe Washburn is A-hole thats picks random targets).
Either way its wrong, and needs to be called out.
April 21st, 2008 at 1:00 pm Quote
taro,
You are correct that I am a white male.
However, I grew up predominantly in rural North Carolina. My high school was less than 50% white. I *WAS* in many scenarios, a minority.
I have seen genuine, true, nasty, aggressively active racism much closer than I would have liked.
I have in my life been the victim of sexism - where I applied for a job in a department that was 100% female and was turned down for the sole reason that the women in the department didn’t want a man in the job.
I work in a government office with a larger than populace proportion of blacks. To this day, I still get to see ’subtle’ racism on a regular basis. But I also get to see more and more people interacting without significant thought about race. I went to lunch today with a woman, another white guy, and a black guy. The black guy and I are both pianists at different churches. I’ve participated in several MLK Day events here at work - where I was part of a mix-race choir that was thrown together to provide music for the event.
I’ve seen generally improving racial relations for 40 years. There is still racism. There are still racists. I do not deny this.
But, I have also seen on too many occasions, people willing to wield their race as an excuse for any and everything bad that happens to them. WAY too often I have seen people that are so pre-conditioned to think their race will prevent them from accomplishing anything, (even as others of their race do so), that they give up on trying - and then don’t accomplish anything.
===============
But, one of the negative fallouts from true racism, which I believe is also detrimental to all involved, is negative racism — the belief that because of racism that minorities MUST be protected from any form of criticism. That, in my view, is ALSO racism - though the intent may be admirable.
For racism to TRULY end, we must get to a place where it is permissable to point out poor performance from a minority WITHOUT fear that the race card will be played.
Maybe I have not been as observant regarding an ongoing problem regarding Joh. I don’t look for racism - and I am prone to push much of the trivial race-related crap out of my mind. Perhaps that makes me naive.
But, due to your urging, I went and looked at Washburn’s line’s for Joh and Burke:
Wash/Joh -: .277/.337/.455/.792
Wash/Burke: .253/.294/.399/.694
There *IS* a stark difference in performance for Wash depending on who is behind the plate. Bastia’s split was practically identical for both. Burke improves Felix’ opponents OPS by about 60 points.
What irks me here is the leap to the conclusion that Washburns’ comments are a result of race. It appears that not a moments consideration was given to even weigh the possiblity that it might ACTUALLY be about performance.
Heck, it could be that Washburn hates Johs guts. That still doesn’t mean he hates his guts because he’s Japanese.
I don’t know beans about Joh’s or Washburn’s or Dickey’s personalities. But I do know there a lot of jerks and a lot of racists in this world. I know that you do NOT have to be a racist to be a jerk. But I do know that if a jerk is a jerk to a minority these days, he’s likely to be labeled a racist.
April 21st, 2008 at 1:32 pm Quote
Doc,
What baffles me is that the very statement you quote is an admission by Washburn that WASHBURN’s decision was wrong.
As for the general discussion of baseball “code”.
Well, here I stand guilty as charged. I believe the vast majority of baseball code is self-serving dung - that is ultimately detrimental to the game, fans and players. Most of “the code” is specifically designed to pass along guilt to anyone but the guilty.
Here’s the MLB players code in action.
Palmeiro says, “I don’t know how I could’ve gotten steroids in my system.”
Investegator asks, “Well, have you gotten any shots that you thought were something other than steroids - but might have been steroids?”
Palmeiro says, “Well, I got a B12 shot from Tejada.”
The *CODE* says that Palmeiro threw Tejada under the bus, and the code then deems that Palmeiro is thenceforth personna non grata.
Couple years and a few investigations later - Tejada’s name shows up prominantly on documents and in testimony directly linked to steroids.
========
The reality here is that in the past decade we’ve REPEATEDLY seen people on trial (or in prison), not for breaking any law - but for LYING TO INVESTIGATORS. That’s the entire reason the President was impeached. He didn’t break a law - he lied to an investigator.
That is exactly the current legal Sword of Damacles that is currently hanging over Bonds - lying under oath.
Well, the vast bulk of MLB “players code” is based on a simple criteria. If it might get someone else in trouble *LIE*.
I personally don’t think that helps the game in any way.
If Palmeiro says - “No, I never got an injection of any kind,” while knowing full well he got a “B12″ shot from Tejada - he is *MORE* likely to wind up in jail. Because, it is one in a billion that you will do TIME for steroids. But you *WILL* do time for lying under oath.
=============
As for the other part of your question - the other quotes. A quick google served up a bunch of “called for a ” quotes. In almost every one of them, the phrase is followed up by “I shook him off.” And that is the whole crux of the problem. We’ve got two players who *SHOULD* have shaken off the catcher that they allegedly don’t respect.
Meanwhile, the rest of the league has pitchers who shake off pitch calls (with good and bad results).
Why is it that I seem to be the only one here who looks at **NOT** shaking off a sign as an actual indicator that a player is *OVER* valuing the call of the catcher?
*REAL* disrespect would be not shaking off the catcher and then throwing a different pitch anyway. THAT is disrespect. Accepting a call that you have reservations about is an explicit admission that you actually put more faith in *HIS* call then in *YOUR* sense of the situation.
April 21st, 2008 at 2:08 pm Quote
Sandy,
First of all let me apologize for undermining where you were coming regarding both your personal background and the intent behind your posts. My assumption was that you were trying to dismiss Washburn’s actions, but now, as I understand it, you just don’t want to make any definitive statements about the “motives” behind Washburn’s actions without obvious evidence. That is fair enough.
Let me make it clear that I have NEVER played the race card in real life (even if I may believe some actions may be racially motivated) since it only distracts from the issue at hand. I make sure that people know it when they are doing something wrong.
Still, with respect, I have to disagree with you on the Washburn situation. Will get back to you on that shortly.
April 21st, 2008 at 2:49 pm Quote
IMO the performance with Washburn and Joh behind the plate is more likely a direct result of the disconnect Washburn has towards Johjima since the beggining of their first Spring Training (you can compare with how Putz/Sherill/Meche/etc reacted to Joh). At first there more guys than Washburn that complained, but that died off after time, and none were more disproving than Washburn. Washburn even yelled at Johjima that ST for not calling enough fastballs at first.. I had no problem with this at first (especially since Washburn was upfront about his preffered pitching style). The problem is that his attitude and disrespect for Joh has continued into this season, and even off the field.
For one Washburn (and others) used to shake off Joh a lot more than he has this year. Around the league people caught onto this and knew that shaking off Joh=gauranteed fastball. This became a tell, and led to situation where the pitchers would be blasted whenever they’d shake him off. Again, you can compare the perfomances of those pitchers that spoke welcomely to Joh, as opposed to those who didn’t that year.
Thats pretty much my opinion on the ‘perfomance’ issues.
Still, even IF the disconnect were due to “actual” performance issues (and IMO it isn’t), it STILL would not be right. Thats something that would need to be resolved one-on-one, and not demeaningly to the press.
In my experience Jerks are equal-oppurtunists, and Washburn seems to be singling Joh out since hes an easier target. But frankly, I don’t even care whether or not Washburn likes Japanese people, or whatever you’d want to call it. Washburn has an obligation to treat his teammates fairly.
April 21st, 2008 at 4:16 pm Quote
What Taro said in both of his previous posts.
While I cannot at all be certain that a subtle racism is behind Wash’s remarks, I feel fairly certain that an unacceptable willingness to slander teammates he doesn’t like. It doesn’t matter to me whether or not Wash is correct that Joh’s pitch calling costs Jerrod runs. What matters is this: he appeared to use a “mea culpa” format to mask the slandering of a teammate in public. I think by saying that he was taking the blame himself is falling for his transparent ploy. My guess is the ploy is not consciously chosen, just his way of dealing with his own problems.
One man’s opinion.
April 21st, 2008 at 4:19 pm Quote
It’s like, I am to blame here — I was the idiot who let somebody like Sandy post on my blog.
:- ) If that statement sounds like self-accountability to you Sandy my friend, we are going to have to agree to disagree…
……………..
That said, we do appreciate your counter, Sandy.
Funny thing is, w/r/t 95% of the race cards that get played in sports these days, I am exactly where you are. *Have* been, many times. For example, I defended John Rocker vehemently, back when it was Dr. D against approximately the galaxy.
But just ’cause the MSM pseudo-intellectuals cry “wolf” way too many times, doesn’t mean that there never occurs prejudice or hostile work environments… If there has ever been a single example of prejudice since I started watching baseball in 1969, this is it rat cheer…
………………
In this unusual situation, there isn’t any doubt in my mind whatsoever, as to what Washburn & cronies have been doing to Johjima since their first day in ST together. Nor any doubt for me, as to what the anti-Asian element is, both with the certain group of ballplayers, and in the Puget Sound area generally.
But you have made your case in your usual effective way. I’ll give yer the last word. :- )
Cheers,
Jeff
April 21st, 2008 at 5:19 pm Quote
I think that the differences in the two quotes tells the story.
First off, the one about Dickey isn’t a direct quote as much as a reporter editorializing on what he saw as Dickey’s feelings on his performance. Getting past that though, the Dickey quote indicates a feeling of team work, and of regret that it didn’t work out, and/or he didn’t execute the plan well. In other words Dickey is saying, Kenji and I together decided to throw a fastball, turned out we were wrong. I don’t see how you could call that throwing Kenji under the bus.
However contrast that to Washburns statement’s, particularly the “I didn’t really want to throw it” part. It is almost like Wash is saying, this was all Kenji’s idea, I didn’t want to go along with it, but I will take the blame because I allowed he to mess me up, I acquiesed to his desires and he was wrong.
Big huge fat hairy difference between we were wrong (Dickey) and He was wrong (Washburn).
Now I have no idea about racism or whatever, my gut reaction is no, but regardless, if nothing else it is just plain RUDE! Forget codes, and what not, what happened to manners?!?!?!
April 21st, 2008 at 5:34 pm Quote
Washburn and Johjima had a screaming match in the dugout during a regular season game back in 2006…Doc should remember this. Washburn probably still thinks Johjima doesn’t respect his preferred gameplan. I think Washburn feels comfortable taking pot shots at Joh b3ecause he feels disrespected by Joh. I’m not saying he’s right to feel that way, but I think it’s a deeply personal thing…Johjima’s philosophy is 180 degrees diametrically opposed to Washburn’s and Washburn feels like his way of doing things is under attack.
April 21st, 2008 at 5:42 pm Quote
If Washburn makes the same exact statement to his manager, I argue no big deal. In that context, I believe he actually is showing himself to be accountable, but is explaining all the details.
Code - don’t throw teammates under the bus in public. It’s the same in the workforce - you cover for your team (your co-workers) in front of people who aren’t on your team - be it the public; another company if you’re in negotiations; clients if you’re in sales; whatever.
Behind closed doors, feel free to discuss openly what the real issues are.
Are Washburn’s comments racist? Honestly, hard to tell, but I agree with the poster who said that Joh is “an easy target”. You know he won’t come back at you in public. Probably know he won’t come back at you in private either. If Joh’s an easy target for racial reasons or for cultural reasons as opposed to some other thing, then what is that?
Compare this situation to the Cubs a year ago - Zambrano and Hill fighting (literally for Zambrano, almost for Hill) with Barrett…after the Hill incident, both Hill and Barrett publicly refused to go further than they were “discussing” pitch selection.
Note Hill doesn’t say, “I wish he (Barrett) had made a better call”. And these guys were seen almost fighting in the dugout about this sitation. It’s likely that Hill didn’t like the call, threw the pitch anyway and was truly upset at Barrett. But for the good of the team, it doesn’t get spun that way in public.
April 21st, 2008 at 6:13 pm Quote
I am very sure Joh also feels slighted by Washburn’s statement.
In almost all cases, Joh will take the blame. That’s what he is - he will make his pitchers comfortable whatever it takes, including taking the fall.
Contrast that to this statement:
Notice that he took the blame in the case of Dickey and he would reconsider another pitch given another chance. While in Washburn’s case, Joh is defensive and still think changeup was the right call. I can feel/see an animosity really brewing. This should be nipped in the bud ASAP.
For all these, I think Joh is intelligent enough to handle the likes of Washburn. What I worry is about the clubhouse chemistry should this issue not settled.
April 22nd, 2008 at 6:16 am Quote
1) I obviously COMPLETELY missed all of the introductory animous associated with Joh. I wasn’t following the Mariners at the time - so I didn’t have any back story.
2) I do not recall *ANY* discussions along these lines for the *entirety* of the 2007 season, (when I arrived at D-O-V). In fairness, there may have been references to this stuff which didn’t register with me (lacking the back story), or which I just glossed over for whatever reason.
3) Living in Carolina, there is no west coast coverage to speak of here. So, if there was any newsprint coverage of any of this stuff - I would also have been completely isolated from it.
So - here’s where things get interesting from a “we see what we’re looking for” standpoint. Lacking any PREVIOUS knowledge of animosity between Wash and Joh (or any anti-Joh bias having been raised in my conciousness), I read the quotes offered as regrets by each pitcher for not having shaken Joh off.
Now, with Wash - a long time veteran, I would agree that he could have been a bit more politic in his phraseology. Since it is only text, I have no choice but to put *MY* emphasis on words - inject my own tone as it were. My first reading of the phrase, absent any knowledge of negative feelings was that of a thousand athletes who, having screwed up, voice a wish to go back and change one bad decision.
Like back in ‘93, Chris Webber’s infamous Final Four timeout, one of his quotes was something like “When I came down the court, I heard the bench screaming, and I thought they were screaming for me to call a time out.” (they were actually screaming “NO time outs”). I didn’t view that as throwing his whole team under the bus.
But, it is common in sports to view a player reacting negatively to a bad outcome. A player is called for a foul, if he slams the ball to the floor in anger, is he angry at the foul being called - or it he angry for having committed the foul? I’ve seen the exact behaviour be judged differently in hundreds of situations. If the player bangs the ball against his head, the intent is obvious - against the floor, not so obvious.
For me, I *attempt* to view situations as neutrally as possible. But, I understand that past experience colors perceptions. Rasheed Wallace develops a rep as a hothead, so after 2 or 3 situations where he CLEARLY stepped over the line, (and was punished accordingly), a play happens where he slams the ball to the court or utters an oath after a foul call - and he’s immediately teed up. In the latest instance BY ITSELF, any other player gets the benefit of the doubt. Well, now Rasheed is put into a situation where he is not only punished when he should be - but he’s also getting punished when others wouldn’t - essentially being punished repeatedly for previous crimes. That’s how the world works. I understand it. But I don’t have to buy into it. And I, in my personal journey to try and grow as a person, do my utmust to live in tne now.
=======
Based on comments in this thread - when Joh was brought in there was concern about communication problems. My first thought is that this is not a ‘racial’ issue, but a practical consideration. Communication between pitcher/catcher is critical to their task. The same would be true with a catcher who spoke only Russian, Italian or Esperanto. The Ms happen to be (along with the Braves), the most culturally diverse team in baseball.
So, Wash believes that the communication issues with Joh - a LANGUAGE thing - not a race thing - are going to be detrimental to his/their performance. It becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. Clearly Wash has poorer results when Joh is catching him. Is that Washes fault or Johs? I dunno. But I do see that over time Wash would be only human to start attributing the repeated failures upon Joh.
One could view that as a guy being a jerk. One could view that as a guy being racist. Or, one could view that as a guy who more than anything wants to WIN, and is convinced that Joh is detrimental to that end.
From a study of human behavior, what I find fascinating about all of this is that Sexson is almost universally loathed in the blog-o-sphere. Vidro and Wilky, too. Yet, even with Joh performing worse at the plate than any of the three - AND with results with him behind the plate being worse than that of Burke - the mass conciousness is “he’ll come around.”
(I think he’ll come around, too - but seem to be the only one willing to say the same about Wilky and Vidro).
I remember reading 1984, and the description of how the masses could instantly change their views about who was their enemy instantaneously, en masse - and thinking that the concept was utterly preposterous. Yet, in the sportsworld, it is undeniable. Beltre goes from the worst signing in history (after his first season) to a long-term integral part of the future. Sexson does the reverse. I’m amazed at how this player is judged solely on 3 weeks of play - yet that player is judged on his previous body of work.
In the end, I am just thankful to have a site like this one, where discussions and disagreements like the above subject can unfold with thoughtfulness and wisdom instead of vitriol and personal attacks. It’s not only a great place to learn about baseball. It’s a great place to learn about being human.
April 22nd, 2008 at 8:52 am Quote
Kinda hard to get upset with opposing viewpoints, which is what we mostly see in threads like these ’round here, instead of straw-man carcasses lying strewn about the field..so you’re right, Sandy. We should all be grateful for access to the place, and the kindred patrons.
All that said, I think the one thing that is being missed here that Doc and taro brought up earlier, was the simple nature of Japanese culture being the actual focal point of the ‘racism’ charge. Consider..
If a Norseman (whose people are generally known for fiery dispositions and explosive tempers) were the catcher, does Washburn go after him like that? Probably not..and that can of course be read as Washburn being an opportunistic bully, but the way that some (including myself) here took it was that he simply took advantage of the cultural difference in order to beat his chest in public and cast blame about. That, to me, is the larger component of the racism charge. Not that Joh is mad about Pearl Harbor or a kamikaze run that killed a relative in the Pacific Ocean..but an attack on a man precisely because he knows that his culture doesn’t permit him to respond in kind.
Or take it another step..to insult a Mexican person using certain English words in your diatribe that you are certain he won’t understand is akin to racism. You’re taking advantage of a cultural/racial disparity for personal gain. Am I making any sense?
All this said, I do like Sandy’s comment about the being a case of everyone looking for what they want to see. Puts a different spin on this for sure, but it doesn’t waver my own opinion that this is another example of the cold-shoulder treatment for the best catcher this team’s had in..well, maybe ever? And my only complaint with the cold-shoulder, from a ‘justice’ standpoint, is that it appears to be solely rooted in his cultural/philosophical differences and NOTHING about his on-field performance.
April 22nd, 2008 at 9:30 am Quote
The hardest part about assigning racism, blame, discrimination, etc is, of course, intent. We have no way to truly measure a man’s intent, even a lie detector test can’t prove a man’s intent, espeacially if he has convinced himself that his intents were pure, when on a base, sub concious level they were not, or vice versa.
To be quite honest, I seriously doubt that Washburn is a deep or hard enough thinker to come up with the idea that he could pick on Joh, because Joh’s cultural background precludes him from respnding in kind. I tend to favor the big bad jock bully side of the arguement.
A slight tangent maybe, but consider for a moment the christian. I am a christian and being so I believe that I should be slow to anger, and that I should treat everyone with the upmost respect and love. I beleive that I should treat my enemies as well as I treat my friends. I am not perfect of course, but I am generally a peaceful, harmony seeking person. For the most part I will be honest and up front, I won’t take advatage of others. This “cultral background” would also preclude me from responding in a strong negative fashion to a throwing under the bus, and speaking from experience I can say that this happens not infrequently. So when someone takes advatage of my christianity is it prejudice? Injustice? Racism (I feel WAY more strongly about my God, than I do my skin color!)? Discrimination? We are so tied to the color of our skin that no one would will balk at my assertion that I have been persecuted because of my religious orientation, but if I was asian people would be upset because I was being attacked because of my cultre. I am way more defined by my religion then by my skin color, yet we are so much more sensitive to skin color than thgings like family of origion, religion, physical apperance, etc.
This subject is getting so much attention because race was interjected. IMHO this is more of a teamate, politeness, friendship issue, and not a race issue. If as a society we can have race be one of the last things we look at when addressing situations like this instead of the first we will all be better off.
Now, if I was McLaren I would sit the two down, tell them to hash it out (You’se guys arn’t leaving this room till you like each other again), kiss (or shake) and make up, and play some gall darn baseball! Washburn needs to stop feeling slighted in his approach to pitching because Joh likes to pitch backwards (seems to work for Bautista
), and Joh needs to be more open to Washburn’s way of pitching as well (Joh is CONSTANTLY getting shaken off, I can see how that would get annoying as a pitcher).
April 22nd, 2008 at 10:01 am Quote
Pretty much sums it up. : )
April 22nd, 2008 at 11:10 am Quote
:grouphug:
Heh!
Jonez finds the middle ground here I think:
Japanese culture is different from ours … in more fundamental ways than most Americans are aware…
When that culture is expressed in authentic ways in America, it is typically not received well.
One difference is, Americans value power, macho, dominance, etc., as expressed in the “fastball is the coin of the realm” attitude …. the Japanese value an intelligent approach and almost exclude the “macho” attitude from society, to the point of valuing “cuteness” … because it disarms potential conflict…
With a Japanese catcher, though he isn’t going to say much, the “macho” brawn-vs-brain “challenge” fastball is going to be *annoying on a character level* … this subtext works itself into the social situation of a pitch call…
…………….
It’s not a case of, hey, I don’t like white or yellow or green skin here…
Whether you are talking American players going to Japan, or the reverse? It’s a case of, hey, these ways are foreign, different, and annoying, and I am not friendly towards your way of doing things. Plus, I was here first… know your place, pal…
……………..
All told, things could have been much worse since Johjima-san arrived, and as was pointed out earlier, NPB players have generally re-upped with the M’s…
April 22nd, 2008 at 11:39 am Quote
I don’t like how you give American baseball negative connotation exclusively Doc…and Japanese baseball exclusively positive connotation.
Us pig headed Americans are all about brawny tough guys slugging home runs and throwing fastballs whereas the Japanese play it intelligently. You’re being somewhat culturally lopsided too. Be aware of that.
There is a lot to like about American baseball…we’re not ALL about power…ask Carl Crawford. We’re not ALL about fastballs. Ask Jamie Moyer. There is TREMENDOUS diversity of styles of play in America, even among the white baseball players. There exists countless ways in which past great teams have been great…from pitching and defense first to offense plus great bullpen to big three starters plus big three hitters etc. Some teams play YuBet at short…some play A-Rod. Some teams value defense up the middle above any other considerations. Some couldn’t care less. Some teams play technically flawless baseball, some make lots of mistakes but compensate with raw ability.
There may very well be cultural differences between the Japanese and the Americans, but it annoys me that you seem to have no respect for the American game, Doc.
April 22nd, 2008 at 2:14 pm Quote
I think we are, too steal a phrase from the good doctor, “trying to make too much soup from one oyster”. Obviously Washburn and Kenji are having a tif, fine lots of co workers get into arguments, just ask Barrett and Zambrano. Trying to take this situation and read some race motivation into it was dubious at best, but blowing it into a full on Culture on Culture battle royale is just becoming laughable. Come on now, how did a little soap opera become WW3?
They just need to hug it out, and all will be well.
April 22nd, 2008 at 2:17 pm Quote
#104 … Matt, it would help if you read comment #103 :- )
My comment:
Your reply:
LOL.
We’ll communicate better, if we listen to each other.
……………
As well, I’m not saying that Jamie Moyer (or Griffey or Bedard) are unintelligent, by any means.
We’re talking about the TENDENCY that leads to the proclamation that “The Fastball Is The Coin Of The Realm.”
But would agree, shades of gray exist, of course.
April 22nd, 2008 at 4:39 pm Quote
Sorry Doc…I read your post and I don’t see how it should change my response. You always talk about Japanese baseball with glowing accalades about how intelligent and technically flawless it is and you always talk about MLB (TM) (note the negative implied connotation even with the way you say that) is full of old school by the book stagnation and large man children playing the game of manhood comparison. Don’t even try to claim otherwise.
April 22nd, 2008 at 5:18 pm Quote
I won’t speak for Doc, and I don’t think anyone wants this thread to become a referendum on anyone’s particular baseball preferences, but I’ll say this about how *I* feel regarding the differences between MLB and NPB..
MLB has access to the most talented players in the world, bar none. There are so few potential upper-echelon HOF types playing outside of MLB that it’s not really worth discussing, at least to me. Guys like Yu Darvish and Dice-K are *probably* as good as there is outside of the states right now.
That said, when the WBC came long, the Japanese absolutely tore through the competition, and it had very little to do with on-field talent. They simply executed their plan flawlessly, and a big part of that is because of their tireless work ethic and perfectionism. The thing I took away from that was this: 100% of the Team USA players were MLB guys, at least that’s my impression. How many on Team Japan played in MLB? I honestly only remember Ichiro..I’m *SURE* there were others, but you see my point. A group of guys, predominately made up of ‘4A players,’ according to many smug analysts on this side of the pond, went out and tore through the ranks simply because of their attitude and style of play. For me, I don’t need to know anything else about their style (and yes, I understand it was ONE tournament, but we can’t always fall back on the small sample size rhetoric, can we?) to know that they play in such a way as to garner respect. And the fact that Team USA wasn’t even in the finals reflects quite poorly on them, for whatever reason you choose. I know it’s tempting to look at the boxscores and declare they didn’t do anything great except get some stellar pitching performances, but that’s hyperbole because most any team that makes the a baseball tourny final will have had stellar pitching performances.
I suppose that is why I enjoy dissecting the NPB style, because they deserve some accolades for their intellect, style and (odd for us to recognize at times) passion for the game. And who knows? Maybe they take a first-round exit-stage-left at the next classic and guys like me who sit here and pile on the accolades will be left scratching our heads.
April 22nd, 2008 at 5:32 pm Quote
Tore through the competition? The Japanese team very nearly got eliminated in the second round (partially thanks to the game the US won that they probably shouldn’t have). They lost to Korea, they lost to the US and it took the US getting thwomped by Mexico to get them into the final group.
Look, there’s a lot of romanticism about the NPB at this blog, and I’m not trying to badmouth Japanese baseball, but we have become totally detached from reality with all of this talk of how smart they are and how stupid we are.
April 22nd, 2008 at 8:05 pm Quote
I guess we’ll just have to agree to disagree on the romanticism angle, Matt. I think I understand what you’re getting at, but in truth, that conversation just doesn’t hold a whole lot of positive value for me.
Now if we were going to discuss point-by-point differences in style between NPB and MLB, I’d be all for that. Things such as pitching backwards vs. relying exclusively on fastballs in tough counts, solid fundamentals/teamwork vs. individual achievement/glory..things of that nature I’d enjoy. But to dogmatically state that this site promotes a detachment from reality regarding NPB isn’t the kind of thing I really want to discuss.
All told, I *think* I understand what you’re getting at. And I still disagree.
April 22nd, 2008 at 8:24 pm Quote
Even your statement about how you would want to discuss the NPB is filled with romanticism. The NPB is all about pitching backwards…ALL of their pitchers do it evidently…and the MLB you only throw fastballs in hitter’s counts…evidently no one over here except the Japanese pitchers pitches backwards to win games.
April 23rd, 2008 at 9:44 am Quote
Ask Garrett Anderson about only getting fastballs in big counts (Aussie, Aussie, Aussie)!
There is a tendancy for all people everywhere to downplay their own successes and fawn over the successes of others. And with the NPB there is definitely some of that going on here. You do it yourself, Matt, when you downplay the success of some of the stats you have invented.
More on point though, in this instance I don’t think Dr. D is trying to say Japanese baseball is better than MLB baseball because Kenji won’t fight back. Actually implicit in his comments is the fact that if Kenji would just stick up for himself none of this would be happening. I remember one time when I came home from school after I had been bullyed particularly badly, and I went crying to my Dad. You know what he did? He spread my legs about shoulder width apart, held one of my hands up in front of my face and thrust the other one out in front of me and said, “There you go son, that’s how you throw a punch.” And then went back to reading his paper
What Dr. D IS pointing out though is that Jarrod Washburn is being a turd of a human being right now. No where in that comment is there any statement about MLB vs. NPB or what not, just one guy being a jerk to another guy and Dr. D is calling him on it.
I will agree that in some instances we get overly starry eyed with the NPB way of doing things, or with one of their players when he is about to be posted, and we definitely point out more with what is wrong with the MLB than what is right, but I think that is merely a symptom of, we are here and that is over there, IOW, the grass is always greener on the other side, and I would bet that Dr. D would tell you that he doesn’t really mean it that way, that is just the way it looks because the human tendancy is to concetrate on our own flaws while concetrating on others strengths. Actually I take that back, that isn’t the human tendancy. It is the tendancy for guys like Dr. D and posters here and at MC
April 23rd, 2008 at 9:53 am Quote
Good post OBF.
I’m not saying Dr. D is racist (LOL…man…the EXACT reverse should be said more often than it is)…I’m just saying while he’s ripping apart Washhburn, he should consider that he has his own personal biases too…that he should try to see it from Jarrod’s point of view…Washburn has made millions of dollars doing it the way he’s done it…Johjima shows up and stubbornly refuses to call the game the way Washburn prefers it to be called for two long seasons…there is a natural tendency to blame his struggles on the man trying to make changes.
Johjima is probably right…that Wash could use some backwards mentality…but it’s not a race thing…it’s not that Washburn is consciously picking on Johjima because he is an easy target…he’s just expressing personal frustration because he wants badly to win and help the Mariners and he thinks Johjima is screwing him up.
May 12th, 2008 at 9:48 am Quote
Jarrod finally accepts responsibility for his bad pitches. Nah, just kidding you guys. If Kenji would stop calling for the meatball pitch everything would be fine.
At the Seattle Times
May 12th, 2008 at 10:05 am Quote
#113
Post from USSM on same:
http://ussmariner.com/2008/05/12/shut-up-jarrod/
Whats there to say? Just more BS from Washburn.
Can we unload him yet? I know we’ll have to eat a little of the contract, but even performance-wise hes getting worse. His fastball velocity has declined to the point that it is officially terrible, and its not going to get better. Hes not even league-average anymore; I think chances are good hes going to implode some time this year or next.
May 12th, 2008 at 10:10 am Quote
I would like to get rid of both of them… Apparently Bedard cant throw to Johjima either.. as Burke has caught him the last 3 times.. that isnt just a coincidence..
As BS or excuse making as it may be, it’s a problem when some of your pitchers dont like throwing to the starting catcher..
May 12th, 2008 at 10:13 am Quote
And let me just clarify, that Im not implying Bedard has issue with Joh (although they werent on the same page at all the first couple starts, and I pointed that out).. but McLaren must feel he can get more out of Bedard and get Bedard in better rhytm when he’s not working with Joh
May 12th, 2008 at 10:21 am Quote
Um…I don’t see anything wrong with Washburn’s quotes in that article.
He specifically said he’s not having any more problem with Johjima than he normally would have with any catcher and PRAISED Johjima for working to overcome the multiple hurdles involved in learning a new language, a new league, new umpires etc.
Get rid of Washburn because he’s ineffective, but don’t skewer him for these quotes…you’re just LOOKING for reasons to hate him now.
Anyway, it’s clear Johjima can’t lead this team…he needs to be gone one way or another.
May 12th, 2008 at 10:52 am Quote
As Washburn said, it could be read as saying there’s no more problems with Kenji than any other catcher… or that he was having no more problems with Kenji than normal.
May 12th, 2008 at 10:56 am Quote
I’m not looking for reasons to hate Washburn, I just read his comments much less generously than you, Matt. I think it was that I assumed a snottiness to the “read into that what you want” (as in, “not more than usual, just the fact that he’s always clueless”)
If you don’t assume that, then I suppose you could take it as more harmless than I did.
Anyway, the Joh-extension/Clement callup seems like a disaster since, regardless of the facts, it now looks like Joh was only extended because Mr. Yamauchi dictated it. And now Clement has to prove himself as a bat-first player and he’s pressing.
May 12th, 2008 at 11:39 am Quote
eeehhh…I don’t see Clement pressing that badly…he’s getting the rookie strikezone and studiously REFUSING to swing at pitches he knows are not strikes, causing a huge number of Ks looking, and he’s hitting a lot of warning track fly outs…I still think he’s going to click very soon here.
As for Washburn, I think he’s just tired of the media asking him about Johjima, which is why he said “read into that what you want.” Sort of like Bedard telling the media they can kiss off. I just don’t read Washburn’s comments as that ugly this time. But then…none of us knows what he’s actually thinking.
May 12th, 2008 at 2:16 pm Quote
It’s easy to be generous and assume the best with one comment that can go either way… but the sum total of all of Washburn’s Johjima comments paint a pretty clear picture in my opinion.
May 12th, 2008 at 2:45 pm Quote
Let’s see…so far, Washburn has regretted that he threw a pitch Johjima called that resulted in a 2 run homer, he’s regretted that he didn’t shake Johjima off on another pitch in a later start, he’s had a loud argument with Johjima in the dugout in a game in 2006, and he’s said this stuff today. Clearly…he doesn’t agree with the way Johjima calls the game in every case, but I see on evidence that he’s out to get Johjima, wants to pick on him, or is targetting Johjima as a specific scapegoat. I read this as a veteran pitcher who is frustrated that his old aggressive fastball diet doesn’t work because he’s lost his zip on the fastball an dyeah…he is trying to avoid facing the very real possibility that he’s just not very good anymore…that is a very human thing to do at his age and with his next contract looming in two years. I don’t think Washburn is a bad guy…I just think he’s a little mentally weak right now.
May 12th, 2008 at 9:46 pm Quote
Whatever the reason is, let’s just get him off the team. I tend to side with the Doc and Taro on this one, but his poor pitching ability is plenty reason for me.
May 12th, 2008 at 10:15 pm Quote
the fact that he is as desperate as he is to shield himself from criticism is a warning shot that he’s not going to be even remotely tolerable for much longer…he needs to go while he still has value.
May 13th, 2008 at 12:43 pm Quote
Why toss Wash - a 100 ERA+ pitcher - (and he’s pitching NO worse today than in June of 2007) - and keep Joh?
Joh is older.
Joh plays at a position which ages faster?
Joh has shown no signs that he is particularly good at calling games, (he’s worst with Wash, but not particularly good with anyone).
Because from my perspective, it comes down to “get rid of him, because we don’t like his quotes in the paper.”
If that is the criteria for dumping players - then Beddard is the next obvious choice for dismissal — and I can hear many echoes from the past of complaints of exactly that attitude by the Ms org — that they too often place “fan friendly” decisions ahead of production decisions.
If production is the issue - why isn’t Batista equally on the hot seat?
Gee - players get snippy in (or with) the press when the team is struggling. Stop the presses. Frankly, annoyance *AT ANYTHING* during a slump is a sign of a player that CARES. I don’t remember a bunch of negativity around Wash during 2007, especially when the TEAM was playing well.
Of course, if everyone feels that having a team full of guys that just plod along silently during bad spells - and show no outward signs of anger and annoyance - (perhaps reflecting their inner belief that they’re just here to get a paycheck) - then may you all get exactly the team you ask for.
May 13th, 2008 at 1:25 pm Quote
I guess we all see different things. My first take was that Washburn’s repeated comments indicated a selfish whiner. I’ve seen what happens when management lets the selfish whiner call the tune — even when it’s a genuine star, which Washburn isn’t. It doesn’t work for the long haul.
I can’t tell from the text, so I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt and assume with Sandy that he’s just frustrated. I don’t have major problems with Wash as an innings-eater, only with what struck me as toxic, me-first attitude.
And, right, you don’t want complacency either.
May 13th, 2008 at 1:46 pm Quote
Sandy…I want Johjima and Washburn BOTH gone…Washburn because his fastball is losing velocity and he’s blocking our youth movement (Brandon Morrow as a starter) and Johjima because he’s 32 and a catcher.
May 13th, 2008 at 2:36 pm Quote
The sad thing is, neither will be gone.