PythagenMatt GameTracker (TM) - 2008
It's a brand new season and the PythagenMatt GameTracker is back.
This year, rather than slapping something together in Excel, I've devised a nifty program inMS Access that will allow me to simply enter the game scores eachday and produce a summary table in a query that can be copied right on over into this post - no problemo.
A reminder for new readers or people who may have forgotten what PythagenMatt is:
PythagenPat (Patriot's W% estimator for seasonal run scoring information) has this formula:
PythagenPat = RS^X / (RS^X + RA^X) —> X = ((RS + RA) / G)^0.285
RS = Runs Scored
RA = Runs Allowed
G = Games Played
PythagenMatt is PythagenPat, but applied to each game, one at a time. The G in the X formula is just 1 at all times. I apply an empirically derived linear transformation to the aggragate raw PythagenMatt W% found by summing all of the game PythagenPat figures for a team and dividing by games played in order to factor out the center-pull bias that comes from limiting blowout games to a 0 to 1 scale.
PythagenMatt W% = ((SUM(Game PythagenPat) / G) - 0.1531) / 0.6938.
But other than that tweak, it's a very simple calculation.
Anyway, this year, I can track all kinds of nifty doodads automatically (strength of schedule, schedule-adjusted PythagenMatt - this one is coming soon…haven't developed it yet, running pythags etc) without spending hours upon hours developing tools in Excel and oh BTW, the daily update will take like 2 minutes instead of 30.
PythagenMatt standings through the games of 5/11:
| Team | G | RS | RA | W | WP | PWP | MWP |
| ARI | 38 | 208 | 164 | 23 | 98.1 | 99.1 | 102.3 |
| ATL | 35 | 173 | 132 | 18 | 83.3 | 100.9 | 99.9 |
| CHN | 37 | 211 | 158 | 22 | 96.3 | 103.0 | 97.6 |
| BOS | 40 | 206 | 175 | 24 | 97.2 | 93.5 | 96.8 |
| FLA | 37 | 181 | 167 | 23 | 100.7 | 87.2 | 94.8 |
| TBR | 37 | 171 | 155 | 21 | 91.9 | 88.4 | 94.2 |
| STL | 39 | 177 | 154 | 23 | 95.5 | 91.3 | 93.2 |
| OAK | 39 | 187 | 145 | 23 | 95.5 | 99.6 | 91.8 |
| HOU | 38 | 185 | 166 | 21 | 89.5 | 89.2 | 90.6 |
| LAA | 39 | 178 | 178 | 22 | 91.4 | 81.0 | 90.2 |
| NYN | 35 | 173 | 159 | 19 | 87.9 | 87.5 | 87.8 |
| NYA | 38 | 167 | 164 | 19 | 81.0 | 82.4 | 87.2 |
| CHA | 36 | 165 | 145 | 18 | 81.0 | 90.6 | 84.1 |
| CLE | 36 | 161 | 138 | 18 | 81.0 | 92.3 | 82.7 |
| PHI | 39 | 185 | 175 | 21 | 87.2 | 85.2 | 81.3 |
| TOR | 38 | 145 | 150 | 17 | 72.5 | 78.5 | 81.0 |
| LAN | 37 | 184 | 167 | 19 | 83.2 | 88.4 | 78.9 |
| PIT | 36 | 179 | 196 | 17 | 76.5 | 73.9 | 78.4 |
| MIN | 36 | 158 | 163 | 19 | 85.5 | 78.6 | 76.2 |
| KCR | 37 | 133 | 163 | 16 | 70.1 | 66.3 | 74.4 |
| SFG | 38 | 133 | 177 | 16 | 68.2 | 60.4 | 74.0 |
| BAL | 38 | 153 | 164 | 19 | 81.0 | 75.9 | 72.7 |
| TEX | 39 | 179 | 211 | 18 | 74.8 | 68.3 | 72.3 |
| MIL | 37 | 158 | 179 | 18 | 78.8 | 71.6 | 67.7 |
| SEA | 39 | 153 | 176 | 15 | 62.3 | 70.6 | 66.8 |
| WAS | 38 | 148 | 193 | 15 | 63.9 | 61.3 | 64.9 |
| COL | 38 | 164 | 198 | 15 | 63.9 | 66.6 | 64.2 |
| DET | 38 | 180 | 209 | 16 | 68.2 | 69.3 | 63.0 |
| SDP | 38 | 128 | 173 | 14 | 59.7 | 59.5 | 62.3 |
| CIN | 38 | 162 | 191 | 15 | 63.9 | 68.5 | 60.0 |
A little decoder, for those who don't read the ancient language of Geekish, which is characterized by an almost obsessive reliance of abbreviated shorthand labels.
WP = Win Projection (162 game schedule)
PWP = PythagenPat Seasonal Win Estimate
MWP = PythagenMatt Game by Game Win Estimate












April 9th, 2008 at 4:50 am Quote
BTW…photocopy that leaderboard…the Royals in third place and Detroit in dead last is just plain PRICELESS.
April 9th, 2008 at 7:50 am Quote
What was Detroit thinking, sending all those prospects for Cabrera? They could have been building for 2010.:)
As for the Ms, you also have to figure that most of the offensive question marks have alternative answers in Tacoma (primarily the young man with 6 hits and 4 walks, and only one strikeout, in his first five games for a .526 OBP — think maybe Clement is “solving” AAA?).
The one question mark that doesn’t have an instant answer at AAA is providing a pretty emphatic answer of his own:
Jose Lopez: 30 AB, 10 H, 2 HR, 1 BB, 1 K — .333/.344/.567/.911
I only get to see highlights, but his highlights look good; you guys think he’s “back”?
April 9th, 2008 at 12:23 pm Quote
His swing is back to the way it was before he got all screwed up last year and he’s far FAR more patient up there (not chasing bad pitches as much). I think he’s going to be back to potential all-star levels.
April 9th, 2008 at 12:25 pm Quote
:golfclap:
…………………
LOL Spec.
………………….
It looks that way, yes.
Not because of his results, but because of his approach at the plate. He has gone from seeing 3.6 pitches per PA, to seeing 4.2 — the difference between “below average” and “leading the league” in pitches taken.
As somebody pointed out somewhere, Lopez has swung and missed at only 4% of all pitches he’s seen.
………………….
This year, if he sustains the approach of the first week, I would guess .300/.335/.475 in Safeco. But he’s still not the fearsome attack dog that he’s going to be in his prime. .300/.335/.475 wouldn’t be the end of the line for him, not by a long shot.
What we are seeing, with the 4.2 pitches per PA, is a transitional stage.
April 9th, 2008 at 12:33 pm Quote
Ya.
Check the far-right OPS+ column on this page … a picture’s worth 1000 words :- )
6 terrific hitters and 3 complete catastrophes. 2 of those catastrophes are at precisely the positions that Clement and Wlad play: RF and DH.
…………………..
That would be serendipity … for the Oakland A’s. To have the two problems exactly at the positions your two ML-ready blue chippers play. What luck!!
However, org trends persist across manager changes: Mike Morse came out of ST hitting .500, and now has 4 at-bats in 8 games, while Wilkerson hits .000-plus and kills the ballclub.
I’m not saying that Vidro and Wilkerson haven’t been unlucky. But Morse could have been worked in there at different positions. The entitlement syndrome has now caused Morse to go stale.
Whooo doggie. 4:1 eye?
April 9th, 2008 at 12:34 pm Quote
Yeah…he’s not going to be seeing 4.2 pitches per PA if/when he becomes a MOTO bat. He’s going to take what he’s learned about the strike zone and suddenly start powdering the ball on the first pitch sometimes.
April 9th, 2008 at 12:59 pm Quote
Ya youbetcha.
And pitchers won’t be throwing scads of “tease” pitches, off the plate, once Jose stops swinging at them.
Jose’s week’s worth of 4.6 pitches per PA? That was simply the pitchers throwing their usual slop at Jose, expecting him to swing, and getting a blizzard of called balls for their trouble.
Notice that such a radical change, and the book on it, takes about 1 week to get around the majors. This is the typical lag time.
…………….
Once a young player tightens his strike zone, you re-rack and start a new game. Astute M’s fans will be looking forward to seeing the new game develop, as pitchers actually work the STRIKE zone on Lopez.
April 9th, 2008 at 1:28 pm Quote
Mr. Baseball is VERY excited at what he is seeing from Jose’s performance so far. He thinks Mac deserves much of the credit for having the guts to start the season with Jose hitting second. This was important because:
It gave him the best chance to get out of the gate quickly
Showed confidence that often begets confidence
Gave Jose a payoff for making swing AND approach alterations.
In otherwords, Mac has handled Jose perfectly and there are a few of us that are saying IT’S ABOUT BLASTED TIME SOMEBODY DID! (that felt good :D)
Something is going on in Marinerville that Mr. Baseball likes very much. Somebody has been successful in helping Jose and Mr. Sexson make important mechanical changes. This is no small feat. Never underestimate how difficult such changes are to incorporate.
The question is : will this continue? If so, it will be a fine offensive year IMBHO.
Mr. Baseball is giving Mac some love here. Handling people is much more important than the x’s and o’s of the game.
April 9th, 2008 at 1:45 pm Quote
.
Always makes us smile to see Mr. Baseball’s name in the Groks index, and #8 did not disappoint :- )
Ya. Fans want to judge MGRs by in-game tactics — a MGR is good or bad, based on whether he selected EOF or RRS or XYZ. And that kind of switch is always debatable anyway…..
If MacLaren’s positive approach is the difference between a .252/.284/.355 year, or a .300/.335/.474 year, just for Jose Lopez …. how many (debatable!) pitching switches is that worth?
…………………..
I think that saberdweebs are extremely reluctant to ask this “root cause of good year or bad year for Player X” question, because they can’t measure it, and therefore can’t take the lead in the discussion?! ;- )
April 9th, 2008 at 1:56 pm Quote
Oy…wish you would stop using the general term “sabermetricians” to describe the people to whom you are referring, Doc. I know who you are talking about and they don’t represent me.
McLaren’s bungling of the bullpen is costing us games right now, but once he has better pieces it will become a non-issue and that time is coming soon. And more importantly, Lopez adding 3 offensive wins this year (and Sexson adding 3 of his own perhaps) is probably going to be worth more than the bullpen switches anyway. McLaren’s coaching staff is the biggest thing going for him…he’s got a lot of very upbeat, positive, supportive coaches on his bench and they are making a huge difference for some key players (Lopez, Sexson, Betancourt, Silva - who’s K rate is WAY up this year so far - maybe even Corcoran…who might become the next rabbit-out-of-hat reliever we randomly find who becomes awsome…we seem to have that ability).
April 9th, 2008 at 2:09 pm Quote
LOL. You catch me on that one every time. My bad.
Right. As mentioned before, we’re not talking about “sabermetricians.”
We’re talking about the amigos who:
1. Believe nothing they haven’t seen published on BP
2. Believe that they’ve read it all (”no evidence exists to say that….”)
3. Overemphasize HR/F*, BABIP, and xFIP, especially in the short term (even applying BABIP dogmatically to a single game)
4. Believe that if it can’t be measured, it doesn’t exist or isn’t important
5. Believe nothing tentatively
6. Believe that their opinion is the end of the discussion
7. etc.
James, Shandler, you, G-Money, and Sullivan are “sabermetricians”. I need some other (not overly hostile) term of description for the amigos who believe they have 995 of 1000 light bulbs on. ;- )
April 9th, 2008 at 2:16 pm Quote
Yup.
I’m guessing a month, actually, until JJ and Morrow are back… but until then, the M’s seem to have triangulated into the best choices to fill in.
And I don’t know whether it will stay up … but his change-speed game is MILES better than in 2006, 1H 2007. So there’s a basis for hoping for improved performance…
Supposing that we had stipulated 115 OPS+’s for Lopez and Sexson this year Matty… what would have been your W/L expectation?
April 9th, 2008 at 2:20 pm Quote
.
BTW, we’d all heard about Silva revamping his change-speed game for 2H 2007… did you guys know that Silva’s K/BB went to 34/7 last year, for Aug-Sept?
That’s over the course of 65 innings, so the K rate still wasn’t real high, but Silva’s game does appear to be evolving to some extent.
That left Silva at 4.9 K for that stretch. Right now it’s at 6.4 for the first two games of 2008. Shandler sets 5.6/game as the magic number that superlow BB pitchers must have in order to *star.*
April 9th, 2008 at 2:46 pm Quote
I can plug adjusted RC rates into my prediction and see what comes out. I actually had Sexson hitting for a 115 OPS+ (roughly) already. But Lopez I was NOT optimistic on AT ALL. Mr. Baseball has been giving me a hard time about that one.
Moving Lopez to all-star production (115 OPS+ at 2B is potential all-star level) moves the club from 775 runs scored to 805 runs scored.
I’ll have to correct my bullpen expectations though to account for Green having lost his command and Morrow being hurt.
April 9th, 2008 at 2:50 pm Quote
BTW Doc…I recommend the term “sabermetristas” or “saberists”…those endings imply that the opinions held are treated as dogma or “absolute belief”…a sabermetrician is merely a person who applies sabermetric tools.
April 9th, 2008 at 3:04 pm Quote
Roy Corcoran came out of college (LSU) and moved right on up the ladder:
Age 21 Rookie — 17.1 IP, 21K (10.9 k/9), 2BB (1.0 bb/9)
Age 22 A — 80 IP, 106K (11.9 k/9), 24BB (2.7 bb/9)
Age 23 A+ — 33 IP, 35K (9.6 k/9), 11BB (3.0 bb/9)
Age 23 AA — 23.2 IP, 26K (9.9 k/9), 7BB (2.7 bb/9)
Then two games in the PCL and on to the bigs, where he joined a lengthy parade of mediocre pitchers for the last-place, semi-homeless 2004 Expos.
Then a long stretch of AAAA plateau, with walk rates ballooning up to the 6 per 9 range, until Stottlemyre or someone plucked him off the scrap heap last week.
Take away those years where he’s walking someone every other inning, and he’s kind of interesting. Career 9.4 K/9 in the minors. Quite possible Stottlemyre saw something he could “fix.”
April 9th, 2008 at 3:08 pm Quote
well he does appear to have somewhat erratic command, but not nearly as bad as Green. I am starting to become in favor of outright replacing Green with Corcoran if he keeps up his command. He’s got 9 K stuff…93 mph fastball, cute little slider and both pitches sink and move a lot.
April 9th, 2008 at 3:12 pm Quote
#15 sabermetristas … HEH!!
:- D ah, man…
April 9th, 2008 at 3:15 pm Quote
#16-17… good stuff.
A second glance at Corcoran does have me ruling him out a little less unthinkingly.
Still not a believer by any stretch, but the earlier dismissal might have been a little hasty.
…………………..
Second too-hasty glance :- ) …. overmatched hitters in the low minors … got to where people could hit him, often in hitters’ parks, and was stunned for quite a while at what it felt like to not breeze through hitters …
Struggling to put his game together against good hitters, but does have plus stuff…
………………….
That’s not the guy I want anointed Savior of an ML pitching staff … but neither is it the waste of time I assumed at first.
April 9th, 2008 at 3:16 pm Quote
I nominate ‘Saberdogs’. As in, dogmatic sabermetricians.
Thanks for the post, spec… was wondering where this GOB came from. : ) Also wondering why the org seemed to like him so much, and why most blog people seem to have no faith in him. Your post is most illuminating.
April 9th, 2008 at 3:16 pm Quote
I sorta ripped off Joe Bastardi (accuweather.com) on that one…he calls the global warming alarmists and dogmatists “global warmingistas”.
April 9th, 2008 at 3:19 pm Quote
Corcoran is the kind of guy a scout-heavy org could easily fall in irrational love with. His stuff is kind of eye popping actually. He’s got good stuff. The question has always been pitch mix and command now that I look at his minor league line. Maybe Mel thinks he can work this guy into shape. If so…good for Mel and good for the Ms if it works.
April 9th, 2008 at 6:14 pm Quote
My gosh, I love Jamie Burke. 3-R HR has to feel good for him.
April 9th, 2008 at 8:30 pm Quote
second career major league dinger at a huge moment…and the pitch before he homered on too…just foul.
He’s got a nice little tight swing…I think he can hit for a .300 BABIP no problem…maybe even a little higher despite his lack of speed.
April 9th, 2008 at 10:15 pm Quote
Right now we have a 3-man starting rotation with Sabermetristas going Opening Day, Saberdogs on Saturday and Saberists for game #3. But R.A. Dickey will definitely replacieone of them shortly.
J.J. does not deliver the pie-in-the-face grimly, of course…
hard to resist lampooning the egos a tadbit, though … which is why Dr. D usually needs to target himself first…
April 9th, 2008 at 10:35 pm Quote
LOL
Update coming shortly.
Ms win going away will undoubtedly vault them up the leaderboard.
April 9th, 2008 at 10:50 pm Quote
Little comparison for ya…the Mariners, Indians and Yankees…all expected to contend…are all 4-5. Who is legitimately playing poorly and who is just unlucky? Hint…the team we root for is not legitimately playing poorly.
April 10th, 2008 at 4:46 am Quote
BTW…I’ve been toying with an idea, but I’m not sure if it means anything or would even be feasible.
PythagenMatt is great for what it is…but there are flaws. You could play a dead-even game all night long, go 19 innings and lose 1-0 and you get a big fat ZERO in the PythagenMatt column for that game. You could be holding on to a 3-2 lead for 8 innings, then score 11 runs in the 9th and you get a HUGE number when in reality the game was a lot closer than it wound up looking.
I was thinking that the best measurement tool for how strongly a team dominated a game might not be the final score of that game but the average win probability of that game. Fangraphs tracks win probability live during every game, but I don’t have access to their data stream.
I’m not entirely convinced that’s the best approach (I mean if you score 4 runs in the first and win 4-0…is that more dominant than if you score 4 runs in the 6th and win 4-0?) but I think it would measure game balance better than PythagenMatt does.
April 10th, 2008 at 4:49 am Quote
I wonder if I could convince the people at fangraphs to track average win probability. I could copy their data and run my own analyses off of it…I’ll ask Tom Tango if he knows how to contact them.
April 10th, 2008 at 6:57 am Quote
I suspect that your suggestion could add a little light - but only on a specific (likely small) subset of teams.
Offensively, I cannot fathom how late-inning surges could actually be a team trait. Having an explosive offense is going to lead to more huge combacks - but should (logically), lead to more big early leads as well.
BUT, I think it quite likely that there are teams that are EXTREME in their ability to hold leads (or conversely, surrender them).
But, I am not convinced that your suggestion would be beneficial, (and could be detrimental. It is one thing to discount excess/surplus runs from the FINAL win total, because the final picture captures everything that happened anyway. But, a team with an exceptionally bad bullpen, but great starters (say - the entire AL West at the moment), would seem to track to appear BETTER than their results, (assuming they hold leads while starters are in - but then collapse at the end). The win odds are net positive, but the results are negative.
The problem here - as opposed to just looking at the final run totals is that while you might identify the WHY of the losses - you are NOT going to be more likely to win tomorrow with your dreadful bullpen then you were yesterday. If your pen sucks (or is stellar), then the assessment picture is likely to get worse (from reality), rather than better.
Part of my mind is saying that what you’re suggesting would actually be undoing what you accomplished with your current version. I’m thinking that by examining an inning by inning win-prob you’d be more likely to muddy the water in regards to the reality of the Tag-Team Horribla of Weaver/HoRam - coupled with the bullpen-of-the-gods.
I mean, there’s nothing to prevent you from picking a small subset of 2007 games and running the numbers by hand to get a feel for how the results trend in specific outlier games - (and that’s really the beauty of PyMatt - that it handles the outliers so much better).
April 10th, 2008 at 10:47 am Quote
Fangraphs is run by David Appleman, and his e-mail is david@fangraphs.com.
April 10th, 2008 at 11:23 am Quote
Fair point Sandy…but what would you propose I do about the 1-0 in the 19th scenario?
April 10th, 2008 at 11:44 am Quote
Does that even matter? If you have all your stats from last year, can’t you just find a game where the score was 1-0 and change it to a 19 inning game and see what impact it had on the two teams PythagMatt for the whole season? I doubt it would be much for even that extreme scenario, and if something doesn’t matter in the extremes then it isn’t worth fussing over.
April 10th, 2008 at 11:57 am Quote
It’s not just the 19 inning 1-0 game…a 9 inning 1-0 game should be closer to .500 than all or nothing. It seems wrong somehow to give a tema no credit for playing well in a pitcher’s duel like that. For that matter, a 3-1 game is worth like .86 of a win for the victorious team and that seems kinda extreme.
April 10th, 2008 at 12:17 pm Quote
Average win probability would be pretty cool to see… but that measurement would make teams with lousy bullpens look better than they were, right…
PythagenMatt is a purty good stat…
It’s funny how the statistic of W’s and L’s does a pretty good job of measuring how effectively a team is achieving its goal (the goal of having more runs at the 9.0 inning mark) …. because you are playing 162 games…
If you want to figure how much real luck was involved, Pythag has its plusses and minuses but is interesting… PythagenMatt is probably getting within shouting distance of a “fair” measurement.
……………………
Of course, you can simply look at total bases gained, and total bases given up, over the course of 162 games and 10,000 plate appearances, for a gauge on how much horsepower a team brought to a season. Sometimes it seems like sabertistas ;- ) view an MLB season as little more than this. I get the impression that some folks would like to see the championship just go to the team with the highest [bases gained] - [bases yielded] total after a summer’s play.
[Bases - bases] gives a pretty good read on who was “lucky.” But if you want to allow for the factors bullpens, ability to manufacture runs in a close game, etc etc, with an acknowledgment of the 9.0 inning factor in the game of hardball ….. the W/L column is sort of an underestimated statistic :- )
April 10th, 2008 at 12:33 pm Quote
Yeah…I’m thinking now that PythagenMatt is almost as close as I’m going to get to a reliable W% estimator that weeds out the luck and has predictive value. I would like to address the problem of low scoring, close games, but that’s really the only major issue.
April 10th, 2008 at 1:46 pm Quote
Yeppers. And that kind of tool can only go so far, I think… P-Matt, nobly, takes us pretty far towards the horizon already, it would seem…
April 10th, 2008 at 5:52 pm Quote
I think PythagenMatt has already opened the door to a lot of important observations about how teams defeat Pythag.
One solution I have for the low-scoring-game bias (PythagenMatt seems to overestimate the Padres, for example, because they routinely win a lot of 3-1, 1-0 games with their pitching) would be regress each game to the mean for both sides. Assuming the final score represents how the teams would play if the game was repeated a million times is statistically rather dubious. I could use the basic assumption of Bayesian probability (start out assuming the teams are average until they start proving you wrong). Assume runs will be scored at the league average rate per inning…that gets entered as one inning where both sides have scored the average number of runs…then count the game as X number of innings where runs were scored at the real rate and average.
In the case of the 19 inning game, we have strong evidence that neither side is going to score runs at a high clip…we start with each side having one inning about about 0.56 runs…then the winning team has 19 more innings for a total of 20 and 1.56 runs while the second team has 0.56 runs in 20 innings.
The new PythagenMatt for that would be (0.56/20)^X / ((0.56/20)^X + (1.56/20)^X) where X equals (2.12 / (40 / 18)) ^ 0.285
If I did this there would be a larger center-pull bias (no such thing as a shutout anymore…and generally all games reduced to a slightly less extreme score differential due to the Bayesian average assumption) so a new empirical adjustment would be required but it might give me a slightly more accurate (higher R^2) relationship with winning.
It almost seems like that amount of work isn’t really worth it though.
April 10th, 2008 at 5:59 pm Quote
side note…David Appleton is quick to respond and says he will make it a priority to get average win probability and average leverage index data posted for each game…could be fun data worth studying.
April 10th, 2008 at 11:36 pm Quote
:golfclap:
April 11th, 2008 at 1:42 am Quote
Hey Doc…why did you want my e-mail address again? Haven’t gotten anything from you so checking to make sure you didn’t send something that got eaten by my spam filter.
April 11th, 2008 at 2:21 am Quote
Will get with ya shortly amigo…
April 12th, 2008 at 12:17 am Quote
Well that was a tough 8-5 game…the Ms offense really impressed me tonight, especially the third time through the order.
April 12th, 2008 at 10:44 pm Quote
Ms’ tough, well fought and decisive wins against The Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim in the State of California, USA, on Planet Earth in the SOlar System, as part of the Third Major Spiral Arm of the Milky Way Galaxy in Universe 129193CX of the Multiverse (otherwise abbreviated as LAASCUSAPESSTMSAMWGU129193CXM) have vaulted them into 8th in the early PythagenMatt race, and demonstrated that they are very capable of scoring PLENTY of runs.
April 13th, 2008 at 12:28 am Quote
Heh! :- )
April 13th, 2008 at 6:10 am Quote
so let’s see…since we left Baltimore we’ve scored 6, 7, 0, 8 and 8 runs. The zero was annoying but all in all…the offense seems to be clicking.
April 13th, 2008 at 6:11 am Quote
Oh BTW, for the year, the Ms have scored 4 or more runs in all but 2 of their games. Talk about consistency!
April 14th, 2008 at 4:20 am Quote
What does DOV make of the spectacular failure of the Detroit Tigers?
I had them pegged to win 98 games this year and so far, not only are they 2-10, but they’ve actually played that badly (if anything they’ve played WORSE than that!)…33 RS and 78 RA in 12 games…OOOOWWWCH! That includes being shut out 4 times out of 12 games. What the heck is going on in Detroit? Can they recover from this and still contend?
April 14th, 2008 at 6:43 am Quote
If for their last 150 games, they can win at the rate in which the 2001 M won games, they still have a chance. So, slim chance.
April 15th, 2008 at 4:44 am Quote
We ran into an ace having a GREAT start…it happens. No big deal. Today we have a better shot.
April 15th, 2008 at 10:23 pm Quote
LAA beating TEX does not impress me…they’re truly awful…much worse than their PythagenPat suggests.
April 16th, 2008 at 10:32 pm Quote
Now the Ms get Carlos Silva “Lining” vs. Lenny “why am I pitching in the big leagues?” DiNardo while the Angels have Yawn Garland vs. I think Brian Bannister.
By the end of the night, we could be back atop the AL West (in a three-way tie of course)
April 17th, 2008 at 3:26 am Quote
No, the Angels get Tomko. The A’s will get Bannister, Greinke and Bale (if he is not replaced).
April 17th, 2008 at 3:30 am Quote
OK…that’s cool..Tomko is no great shakes but then…it’s nice that the As are getting two solid arms in three and it’s not like the Angels are using a good pitcher today anyway (yeah…I have ZERO respect for Jon Garland).
April 17th, 2008 at 3:53 am Quote
I think Hochevar is gonna replace Bale on Sunday. So the A’s get to face Bannister, Greinke, Hochevar.
April 17th, 2008 at 5:37 am Quote
That’d be nice…better they get to see the unknown top prospect than the known waste of time.
April 17th, 2008 at 11:39 pm Quote
I can’t go to bed until the Padres game ends. LOL 17 innings…the pain and the agony…
April 18th, 2008 at 1:29 am Quote
22 innings. Franchise record for both clubs…longest game since 1991…latest I’ve ever seen baseball live…excuse me while I pass out.
Parting shot…how ’bout those Mariners.
7-3 in their last ten, climbing the PythagenMatt leaderboard with gusto.
April 19th, 2008 at 8:30 pm Quote
*sigh*
This weekend has been bad on so many levels for me. Ms better get hot soon.
April 20th, 2008 at 8:33 pm Quote
Anaheim’s next opponent: Boston…let’s hope they get clobbered in Boston wile we’re pulverizing the Orioles at the Safe.
April 20th, 2008 at 11:49 pm Quote
Seems like a good opportunity to make up some ground. We need to keep in perspective that we are only TWO games behind the Angels right now.
Sexson is definetly looking like hes rebounding, Morrow is throwing a sick change/split, Putz is coming back, and Lopez looks like he’ll rebound. RRS and Lowe are in the bigs.
The bad news is that the Angels look better as well though (Sanders, Santana, Figgins and Kotchman have emerged).
We need Bedard back quickly, and we need start seriously addressing the DH situation. We’re going to need a better offense than in ‘07 to win this thing.
April 21st, 2008 at 4:44 am Quote
Figgins is just spectacularly lucky with his BABIP right now. He’s fast but not fast enough to explain his current batting average. The rest though…Santana scares me…he might have learned how to pitch which would be very bad for the Ms…Saunders might be turning into a #3 as well.
April 21st, 2008 at 10:05 am Quote
#62
I think Figgins a little over his head right now, but hes shown a lot of growth over the past two years. His GB% has been rising for years, his walk rate is rising as well(and spiking this year); his LD% has increased significantly since last year.
A 26 LD% in ‘07 and continuing in ‘08 is EXTREMELY high, I wouldn’t be suprised if Figgins with his speed (combined with high GB%) and high LD% starting running Ichiro-esque BABIPs.
I think hes developing into a pretty valuable player.
Santana, on the other hand, has probably arrived, but is likely a little over his head right now. I see both Saunders/Santana as quality #3s…
April 21st, 2008 at 11:22 am Quote
Still, I don’t think Figgins’ final line is likely to be much better than his ‘07 line despite an improving underlying skillset (or even match his ‘07).
Saunders is still a downgrade from Escobar, the SS is downgrade over ‘07 Cabrera, Figgins is more or less a push, Kotchman isn’t going to be HUGE upgrade over his own self, although Santana is probably going to be a pretty huge upgrade on his ‘07 self, and Hunter does add value as well.
Its harder for me to project our overall pitching/defense to be too much better than the Angels, so we need to match them hitting-wise, which I think we can do if we take the DH sitation more seriously.
April 21st, 2008 at 11:34 am Quote
BTW Matt,
You never let me know how much you needed for our wager. A bet is a bet, just name the amount, give me an adress, and I’ll send it out to you. : )
andygfi01@yahoo.com
April 21st, 2008 at 5:10 pm Quote
Right now I’m thinking I can’t afford to fly to Seattle for a game…BUT…the Mariners play the Mets at Shea Stadium this June, so perhaps you can cover my tickets to one of those games…I have friends in NY who want me to come up for that series.
April 22nd, 2008 at 5:58 am Quote
Let’s hope we get a chance to look at JJ Putz today.
Whether he’s back today or a week from now, the Mariners have done a good job weathering the storm of injuries and staying around .500 while they wait to reload. Hopefully JJ and Bedard get back to dominating the AL in the next week or two and we can start stomping our way to 8 game winning streaks.
April 22nd, 2008 at 4:44 pm Quote
The good - Putz officilly activated
The bad - Dickey sent down, Baker speculating because he has options while Baek doesn’t. Le sigh…
April 22nd, 2008 at 4:55 pm Quote
Yeesh, Baek is behind Roy Corcoran on the depth chart yet the M’s are afraid to lose him. Can we trade him to an NL club already and stop letting his presence dictate roster decisions?
April 22nd, 2008 at 4:55 pm Quote
Why…WHY…does Bavasi insist on keeping Baek on the blasted roster when McLaren can’t even find him innings?!?!?!?!?!?!
This is just BIZARRE.
April 22nd, 2008 at 4:58 pm Quote
Un-be-fickin-lieveable. Dickey down to AAA. I’m at a loss to explain how the Mariners could be this stupid about Baek.
April 22nd, 2008 at 4:59 pm Quote
Let’s not lose sight of the big picture, though. Say it with me: YAY, PUTZ!
April 22nd, 2008 at 9:52 pm Quote
Putz In, Game Over. Remember what that feels like?
April 22nd, 2008 at 10:09 pm Quote
Aaaahhhh!!
That was better than … [um,a lot of things].
That, my friends, is how you win 95+ games. The stellar bullpen is back on track.
April 22nd, 2008 at 11:15 pm Quote
Minor note: please, let’s skip the substitutes for the f-word. If for no other reason than my personal preference. Ah, I love being the despot.
April 22nd, 2008 at 11:18 pm Quote
Major point:
This is a point that Matty has been making for a few weeks now… it’s becoming easy to visualize a pitching staff with every individual running an ERA > 100.
……………..
Rhodes threw the ball MUCH better than I thought he was capable of. 92-94 is more than enough for a LOOGY to wipe out lefties.
Mac positioned Rhodes for that stretch of 3 LH’s in 4 hitters, used Felix just enough to get to that point … and bracketed the LOOGY with Felix and JJ.
You’d almost think this Mac character was finding his groove…
April 22nd, 2008 at 11:37 pm Quote
I saw that Gameday had him throwing harder than his first couple outings which shouldn’t be surprising since he’s still working his way back into shape. Hopefully he can sustain that.
JohMac has taken a lot of flak but he’s really no different than most managers in how badly he manages a bullpen. He is way too invested in set roles, is obsessed with matchups and overvalues experience, yet you can say that about 29 other guys. So as a GM you just have to stock up on good arms so that the skipper can’t go wrong with who ever he turns to. With Putz back, the M’s once again have an automatic closer plus two power righty setup men. That is going to keep MacLaren from making any boneheaded decisions.
April 22nd, 2008 at 11:40 pm Quote
While we’re on this subject, I’ll point out that I was totally wrong about how the M’s would handle the bullpen in Putz’ absence. I thought Corcoran would just be a one game place holder, but instead he stuck around even after JJ returned. Looks like Doc is going to have to give a scouting report on him.
April 22nd, 2008 at 11:50 pm Quote
Even better posts than usual, CPB…
Ya it looks like we’re all going to get used to Mr. Corcoran. He has reasonably live stuff, is a novelty in the AL, and has the great fearless makeup…
Long term, the Mainframe is not a believer… but as CPB points out, the set roles are about to take the manager out of the game, so to speak.
………………
Still and all, it was nice to see McLaren calculate the Rhodes appearance so deftly, and nice to see Rhodes bring the stuff he did.
April 22nd, 2008 at 11:53 pm Quote
.
BTW, the Mariners with another tough 4bb vs 6k — that coming against VERY tough pitching.
Jeremy Guthrie was BABVA’s pride and joy in 2007. The lad can be super tough, and was Tuesday. Then that Sarfate guy who came in after him was hitting 98 on the Safeco gun.
Yet here’s the 0.67 eye ratio for the game, against pitchers as tough as that. 72:98 on the year. Bra-VO.
April 23rd, 2008 at 4:30 am Quote
And of course…we’re going to face Mr. BB today…so hopefully we can improve on that ratio.
Seriously…the walk rate has definitely slowed of late but part of that is facing the Angels’ rotation full of guys who don’t walk people. The Mariners’ rotation will be having the same affect on patient clubs in the not too distant future.
April 23rd, 2008 at 10:03 am Quote
Nice game last night. The pitching really picked up the offense, which is what a good team has to do at times. This offense won’t always score eight a game, but they got the hits when they needed it. Ichi looks like he is warming up, which is very good news. JJ is back, Bedard is coming soon, this team is about to start rolling!
I was disappointed to see Dickey go down, but really we are talking about the SEVENTH pen guy, second mop up guy, not a big deal really. In fact it may be that they want to stick Dickey in Tacoma so he can keep on a regular rotation, so if another starter goes down he can come back up and be our #6, lots of teams do it that way.
April 23rd, 2008 at 10:18 am Quote
Obviously there are some guys that they keep on hand solely as insurance against a major injury or other bizarre circumstance. The team really has no intention of having them play a role on the big league team in the ordinary course.
Campillo was always in that role, and Bucky Jacobson, no matter how much blog-love they got. They get paid to be ready to give the team stop-gap play without having to rush a prospect.
That’s where they have Dickey slotted, and Jeremy Reed, too. Doesn’t mean they’re right, but they’ve made their position pretty clear.
April 24th, 2008 at 2:53 am Quote
Looking around the ‘net tonight, we were wondering if anybody else had noticed Brandon Morrow’s Cloverfield appearance in the Balmer loss….
Saw nada, until of course ’twas Jeff Sullivan who noticed. We quote Jeffy for no reason other than that we’re tired, and he nailed it:
Morrow was frightening. If what we saw tonight was any indication of what Morrow’s going to look like going forward, then he’s got a shot at making Felix step livelier.
If the M’s care to deploy the artillery, that is.
April 24th, 2008 at 3:09 am Quote
BTW, it is in good-natured amusement that we note that “touching 98″ is what a guy does when he throws 60 fastballs, x4 of them 97, and x2 of them 98.
Morrow threw 5 fastballs: 95, 97, 98, 98, 97. That’s “sitting” 97-98.
………………..
Last game, Morrow’s 2nd, he “sat” 96-97 against Wlad.
…………………
Game before, Morrow’s 1st, he “sat” 93-95 …. remember that people were wondering about his velocity? As mentioned, you’ve got to give a guy a chance to get loose.
…………………
I wish that we could just memory-wipe the entire Seattle blog-o-sphere of EVERYTHING ever written about Brandon Morrow, and start with tonight’s game.
Because if the EMP pulse blanked everybody, and they woke up tonight, and watched that kid Morrow pitch …. they’d have asked who cloned Satchel Paige. You think Satch used to throw better than Morrow did Wednesday? :- )
………………….
I wish we could memory-wipe the M’s, too, of whatever has convinced them that you can afford to leave a kid like Morrow standing on the rotation sidelines.
………………….
Morrow BTW has been wistfully longing for the rotation in 2008. He wants it as bad as Dr. D does…
April 24th, 2008 at 3:12 am Quote
Finally, as to the reliever part…
It is true in general that most relievers throw harder in relief than in the rotation.
General rules, saith Grandmaster Fischer, may have nothing to do with the specific position you’re looking at. Don’t forget that the specifics of the case at hand, trump the generalities you brought with you to the game.
………………..
Brandon Morrow sat 97 in the rotation — back when he was in college. He’s older now, noticeably bigger, and undoubtedly stronger, with presumably better mechanics.
In his specific case the “velo dropoff” assumption is verrrrrry dubious.
April 24th, 2008 at 3:16 am Quote
.
One last while we spiral off into Morrow-nirvana…
How do BAVASI AND MCLAREN resist?
They know as well as we do, that Morrow has the potential to take over and pull a Wood/Gooden on the league. Don’t they ever get tantalized in situations like this?
If Morrow threw like that — 96-98 with several quality offspeed pitches for strikes — he’d be a $15-20M starting pitcher.
Not even a little tempted to find out? What’s up with them? :- )
April 24th, 2008 at 3:58 am Quote
Morrow’s slow slider is a very effective second pitch…he threw it three times last night…all for strikes (!)…all looking (!)
And then he threw 98 blinkin’ MPH effortlessly.
The Ms had Morrow go down and try starting in winter league for a reason. That reason still exists. His stay in the bullpen is temporary…I strongly believe that.
April 24th, 2008 at 4:33 am Quote
You make a good pernt Matty … actually, eight good pernts…
Yes they had him in winter ball for a reason, but then of course the (rather unlikely) trade for Bedard went through, following the deal for Silva.
After his performance here in 2008, we don’t doubt that they have Morrow solidly into the future-SP slot, to be deployed at some unknown future time in which you don’t have five MLB(TM) vets in the rotation.
………………
But at what point does a young pitcher force you to think outside the box? If it were Tom Seaver 1968, would you bump an entitled 100 ERA+ vet for Tom Terrific?
Or would even Seaver have to wait until a vet dropped his hat?
April 24th, 2008 at 5:05 am Quote
yes…good question of course.
I agree…the Mariners are probably being too careful with Morrow…though there’s an argument to be made for easing him back into the league after the whole shoulder fatigue thing. I’m willing to bet either Washburn or Batista get traded before next season begins.
April 24th, 2008 at 7:11 am Quote
Not being snotty, but you guys may be familiar with people named:
Joba Chamberlain
Hank Steinbrenner
Brian Cashman
It’s all about limiting the number of innings for young arms. Bavasi has made it very clear from the beginning, just like Cashman. NYY knew they would take some heat (maybe not in public from the owner’s box, but it’s NYY), but they are sticking to their guns on Joba, and they DON’T have the “5 established vets” in the rotation.
The Ms were planning on a #5 of Baek/Dickey/RRS, and slipping Morrow in there in the 2nd half (as Joba will replace Hughes or Kennedy or maybe a vet in the 2nd half). When Bedard fell in their lap, they adjusted tactics, but not long-term strategy.
Don’t forget: veteran innings-eaters have market value! Because other GMs are risk-averse too! As Matt suggests, Washburn or Batista can easily be traded for a prospect when they decide Morrow can’t be denied (though I’m not sure they’d do it in the midst of a pennant race).
I may be alone, but I do not despair that Morrow won’t be a starter long term if he’s showing the offspeed stuff that he’s been showing.
April 24th, 2008 at 9:33 am Quote
Nicely put, Spec..I am totally with babying Morrow’s arm along at this point, after he got the fatigue in ST. Give him ten-twelve starts late in the season if he’s still healthy and try to get some return on Washburn or Batista..preferably Washburn, at least to me, since we’ve got Batista under control for another year and he genuinely seems like he could contribute in any role adequately for a MLB pitcher.
But to hear you guys describe Morrow’s appearance with all the off-speed stuff, I’m getting excited about his prospects as a SP again
April 24th, 2008 at 9:45 am Quote
I didn’t see Morrow’s outing yesterday, but the last time he threw the change it was NASTY.
I’ve never been high on Morrow, but if he can throw than change in the rotation then all of a sudden hes a veeeeeery intriguing SP ’spec.
I hope Morrow continues to prove me wrong, and that the M’s eventually consider him for the MLB rotation.
April 24th, 2008 at 12:19 pm Quote
#91 - Jabba is an example of a kid they are being leisurely with about the rotation. There are a number of names on such a list.
As you know, there is also a list of young superstar ML-ready SP’s who were in the rotation as soon as they were capable. We’re not denying that precedents exist for either approach.
You can find org’s who were leisurely about getting a young pitcher into the rotation even after he was ready, such as the Twins with Santana, and you can also find orgs who got only 2-3 years of cheap performance from them (Santana made $5m his #2 year of SP, made $9m his #3 year, $13m his #4 year and then was gone).
April 24th, 2008 at 12:23 pm Quote
As far as using Chamberlain as a precedent for Morrow here:
In 2007, Brandon Morrow spent the entire 7 months in the big leagues.
In 2007, while Morrow was “saving” late-inning situations in Safeco, Jabba opened the season in high-A.
……………….
Chamberlain started at A+ and was promoted to AA during 2007, and pitched in AA, and then was promoted to AAA, and pitched in AAA.
Then Chamberlain joined the Yankees in mid-August 2007.
………………..
Chamberlain’s first full, or even half, year in the majors is THIS year. 2008 is more comparable to Morrow’s 2007 in terms of ML experience.
…………………
Joba Chamberlain is liable to join the Yankees’ rotation in the 2H *this* year. For the Yankees to treat him like the M’s do Morrow, you would have to see them use Joba in relief NEXT year — and then, in 2009, still be hemming and hawing about whether Joba was ever going to start at all.
Would that be cool with you, if Chamberlain completed a full year in the bigs, and was in the pen the FOLLOWING year — and the org was positioning him to miss the rotation that year too?
April 24th, 2008 at 12:26 pm Quote
This was last time, cubed.
You could really see him just rear back and snap off the change AND SLIDER with bad intentions. Looked like Erik Bedard.
He laid the offspeed stuff in there with great arm action, for strikes “at will” (for ten pitches), and the hitters were frozen as if on Erik Hanson curveballs. First two sliders to Ramon Hernandez were hilarious.
Then he’d come back at 98 and it might as well have been 110. For example, the 0-2 count to Jones, usually a pitcher will mess with a batter’s head… here came the challenge FB on 0-2 (why even bother with an extra pitch) and Jones might as well have been *me* swinging at the ball.
……………
Those two hitters were considerably more fun than watching Felix. Morrow just wasted them.
April 24th, 2008 at 12:35 pm Quote
Hey Matt, where’s the GameDay? Should I take my kids to the ballpark tonight? :- )
April 24th, 2008 at 12:44 pm Quote
Of course the M’s probably see it at, “Great, with our solid league-average back-end of the rotation, we can afford to have his awesome stuff in a lights out steup role and not have to watch him struggle to stretch himself out!”
Though in fairness moving him to the rotation now would constitute a massive one year IP leap.
April 24th, 2008 at 2:08 pm Quote
Re: 95
I’ll do my best with this, Doc, although it’s not something I’m an expert in. I am only going from what Bavasi and Cashman have said to the media, and they have been consistent with each other, so I assume it is “prevailing wisdom.”
It’s important to note that the comparison is not a matter of “stuff” or “experience.” It is pure and simple a matter of “innings pitched.”
Both Joba and Morrow were drafted in 2006. Joba had struggled through some injuries in his junior year and didn’t pitch in the minors, but he pitched 37 innings in Hawaii winter ball. Morrow pitched only 16 minor-league innings. So they both came into 2007 a little light in terms of having pitched a full season of starting the year before:
Joba 89 NCAA + 37 Hawaii = 126 IP
Morrow 97 NCAA + 16 minors = 113 IP
Lincecum 125 NCAA + 32 minors = 157 IP
Now the “rule of thumb” that is referred to is that teams avoid an increase of more than 30 IP or so over the year before, due to injury risk. I don’t know where it comes from, but, again, both Bavasi and Cashman are referring to it and basing decisions as to the use of Morrow and Joba based on it.
Both Joba and Morrow showed quickly that they had the raw stuff to help the big league team, and both teams made the call to use them there. Morrow went directly to the big-league pen (although injuries to Lowe, Rhodes and Reitsma contributed). Joba started 15 games in the minors, showed that his blazing stuff was too good to keep down and then, after two minor-league relief appearances, was called up. He was Rivera’s setup guy down the stretch.
Bavasi referenced the inning limit issue at the time (2007). He said that if they sent Morrow to the minors to start, that he would be shut down around 140 innings and that he would not be a help to the big league team. This is on the record somewhere. By pitching him in the MLB pen, he would help the team, and then go to winter ball to stretch out and build up innings.
So, in 2007:
Joba 88 minors + 24 majors = 112 IP (-14 from 2006)
Morrow 63 majors + 36 VWL = 99 IP (-14 from 2006)
Lincecum 31 minors + 146 majors = 177 IP (+20 from 2006)
In other words, per the “rule of thumb,” Lincecum was prepared to pitch a full year of starting in 2007, while Joba and Morrow were not. To be of use to the MLB team, those two had to go to the bullpen (if you follow the rule, which both Bavasi and Cashman have said they will do).
NYY have made it clear. Joba will not start the full season and will not go more than 140 or so innings, even though Hughes and Kennedy are struggling. Once they think he can move to the rotation for the rest of the year and not get shut down due to the IP rule, he will move. Cashman has said so, and was willing to brush back his boss to stand up for it.
The Ms were on this course, as well, sending Morrow to Venezuela so that he would be in a position to be stretched out to 130 or so IP and start in the 2nd half in place of what was anticipated to be a Baek/Dickey/RSS #5 slot.
So up until Bedard came into the picture after Silva was already signed, Morrow and Chamberlain were on essentially the very same course. And all three (Morrow, Joba, Lincecum) were used to maximize their impact on the big-league team in accordance with the “rule of thumb” (whether it’s right or wrong, I don’t know).
The key for Morrow and Chamberlain, then, will be what happens the rest of this year. As it stands now, it appears that Joba will be paced to end up with around 140 IP and be on course to be a full-time starter from there (even though he is a monster as a setup guy and there are voices that would keep him in the pen).
Morrow, we don’t know. If they keep him in short relief, then the Ms will face the exact same problem next year. They may do it anyway, given that there are no contractual starting vacancies until 2010. Or they may trade Wash or Batista, or flip Batista into a setup role.
So you can criticize the Ms for following the “rule of thumb” (in which case criticize Cashman, too — which is fine with me, I don’t know if they’re right), or you can criticize the Ms for using major league talent at the major league level (in which case, again, you need to criticize NYY for rushing Joba in the same way).
But if you defer to the Bavasi/Cashman perspective on those issues, then you have to wait until this season develops to determine that they are mis-handling Morrow. If he ends the year with another 100 or so IP and they are back in the same boat next year, then I think the criticism will be very valid. But we don’t know that yet.
April 24th, 2008 at 2:19 pm Quote
Ya, if that is where Seattle is coming from — that in Shandler style, they want to limit his IP increases to about 50 per year — I agree that it is *reasonable* for them to think that way.
……………..
I personally don’t consider Shandler’s +50IP guideline to be an absolute. I mean, so do we count Morrow’s innings in winter ball? Where do the absolutes come from based on such nice round base-10 numbers?
Lots of guys get Earl Weavered one year for a reliever’s innings, and then into the rotation the next year. Weaver believed in this and he was phenomenal w/r/t pitcher health.
………………
All that said, the middle ground here is — IF the M’s were thinking, “hey, he’d be in there, except we want to manage his workload, so let’s wait until July,” I’d be fine with that.
Is that actually what the M’s are thinking? Or are they just thinking, wow, five certified MLB(TM) starters! Whoo hoo!
April 24th, 2008 at 10:31 pm Quote
Anyone else having a tough time getting up for the games not pitched by Felix or Bedard? This offense is painful right now.. im having a difficult time even tuning in for more than a few innings.. just boring.. in large part due to the fact that we’re watching alot of players who have no future here.. and are just playing out contracts (Vidro, Sexson, Wilkerson, Johjima).. I find myself thinking about Junior in RF, Clement behind the plate, Wlad out in LF.. a quality free agent first basemen.. maybe the new, filthy Brandon Morrow in the rotation, so i dont have to watch Washburn bore me to sleep..
I dunno, maybe it’s just a sluggish start we’ve gotten off to, JJ being out, and Bedard only having made two starts.. but Im a fan who a yr ago tuned into nearly every game, nearly every inning, etc… this year, this roster just doesnt have me interest.. as i said, look at hitters 5-8 in our lineup.. are any of them even hitting .200?
April 24th, 2008 at 10:40 pm Quote
Not throwing Morrow in the 7th was a moronic move. Thats the ultimate example of being too tied into bullpen “roles”. Morrow dominated a meaningless 9th.
Also Lowe isn’t right, his velocity is down, and hes throwing all over the place.. probably needs to be demoted and we can call Dickey back up.
Sherill is killing us….seriously. I wonder if the Os would trade him and Luke Scott to us for Triunfel..
Also I’m starting to suspect that Morrow’s new changeup is actually just the split hes always had (judging from his grip before he throws and the break), I think he just calls it a change. Many of you said that he threw a good slider too though yesterday?
April 24th, 2008 at 10:44 pm Quote
Regardless, in the long-run Morrow looks like he’ll replace Sherrill this year as a dominant set-up man. That should be a HUGE upgrade.
Now we just need to figure out DH… and no more Willie PLEASE.
April 24th, 2008 at 10:47 pm Quote
Ugh, Mac immediately proves me wrong. He should have brought in Morrow with the bases loaded in the 7th since Lowe hasn’t been anything special this year. Instead, he sticks dogmatically to his hierarchy, bringing in Mark first because he has been demoted below Brandon and managers have to bring in their relievers in the proper order (middle man first, then setup guy, then closer). He then makes the completely inexcusable decision of bringing in Green ahead of Morrow. It absolutely boggles my mind how blase managers are about tie games. Rather than utilize their best relievers, they act as if they’re down by a run or two and the win isn’t worth fighting for. Unbelievable.
April 24th, 2008 at 10:56 pm Quote
102 and 104 - what they said.
April 24th, 2008 at 11:18 pm Quote
#105: ditto.
April 25th, 2008 at 2:38 am Quote
#106: ditto. Oh, wait…
………………
Blew $135 on two seats for the game, and when Rhodes backfired (IIRC?), I couldn’t see from where I sat whether it was Lowe or Morrow warming up.
Think that most of us would have called in the pitcher who was capable of the miracle we needed.
………………
Lost the battle, but we’re winning the war… Brandon Morrow ROX…
April 25th, 2008 at 3:31 am Quote
NYM - I totally agree. While I’m not about to give up on the offense so early in the season (I’ll wait for the weather to warm up), this lineup is painfully boring to watch right now. The only bright spots for me personally are Ichiro, Lopez, Beltre, Yuni. That’s it. Like you said, the other guys have no future here and are just playing out contracts. ZZzzzz.
Agreed on the bullpen decisions starting in the 7th. Do you think it would have been impacted by Mac having been thrown out of the game? Was it likely that Mac was phoning in his decisions from the clubhouse, or was it Riggleman/Stottlemeyer making the bullpen calls?
April 25th, 2008 at 3:33 am Quote
Oh, one more thing. Lowe most definitely does not look right. He’s got no control and his velo is way down, just like taro said. The couple big hits he gave up just made me shake my head. They were just meatballs right down the middle of the plate. So frustrating.
April 25th, 2008 at 10:17 am Quote
I realize that there has been much teeth nashing over the poor performance of the Vidro and Wilkerson, among others, but it is the bullpen that is killing the M’s.
Using win probability added, last year the bullpen contributed 8.7% of a win per game [.5 WPA is a win and the relievers averaged 0.0437 WPA per game in 2007]. In 2008, the bullpen is contributing 17.3% of a LOSS per game.
The difference in performance from the bullpen this year and last year is 6 wins in 23 games — this years starters plus hitters with last years pro-rated relievers would be 14-9, not 11-12.
It’s disappointing that O’Flaherty (WPA=-0.8) and Lowe(WPA=-1.2) have sucked to date, but Morrow and Putz give us hope for the future. The fact that O’Flaherty and Lowe have been the source of 33% of the season’s losses is example 1A of why M’s management is SO risk averse. Bavasi/Hargrove didn’t get yelled at by upper management for giving everyday Eddie the opportunity to blow the ‘06 season, but you let unproven talent hose your season and you have to answer to the powers that be.
April 25th, 2008 at 1:25 pm Quote
#110 - while harping on the pen isn’t completely uncalled for - there is obviously some selective memory regarding decision making regarding the bullpen.
The names Mateo, Reitsma, Jason Davis ring any bells?
These were the “Entitled Vets” (TM) of 2007. And the exact same gnashing of teeth over the idiocy of the management was invoked routinely in April of 2007.
The reality is that the Ms management has actually done an EXCELLENT job of assembling quality bullpens, even during the worst seasons — but they have actually been well above average in letting these arms play themselves out of the rotation.
Since 2004, the *ONLY* arm in the pen I can find that got more than 50 innings while pitching poorly was Matt Thornton (2005). Perhaps you could throw Hasegawa of 2004 into that hat, but that would’ve been a harder call to make based on previous performance.
OEF’s implosion was unfortunate. But *NOBODY* saw it coming. However, the club goes and brings up Corcoran, resulting in a loud chorus of “these guys are morons” from most of the blog-o-sphere. Why? Because Corcoran isn’t on anyone’s Top 10 teenage prospect lists. He’s a journeyman minor leaguer, who just happens to have struck out more than 1 guy per inning for 7 years. He’s got control issues, but doesn’t give up dingers. Hmm, high-K, high-walk, low-HR rate. The guy may not have Morrow’s stuff - but he’s had Morrow’s RESULTS for almost 400 minor league innings - (except his control is actually MUCH better than Morrow’s).
SOMEBODY in the Ms organization managed to steal Corcoran away from the Marlins.
The reality here is that almost EVERY club is going to have some problem children in the bullpen. It is standard for everyone. But, fans don’t typically watch and follow the bullpen machinations of everyone else. You think the Angels are thrilled with Dustin Moseley’s 7.78 ERA? That’s 17 runs in 20 innings. That’s EOF-like performance. Nobody WANTS to have a reliever leading the team in Earned Runs allowed on April 25th. But that is precisely what the **ANGELS** have in Mosely.
The key factor is NOT that this happens, but that clubs have the pieces to go and get and fill in with. The Ms have shown a steady and reliable ability to do that for RELIEVERS for some time. They have shown a complete inability to do so with starters in the past. But Dickey was actually an excellent hedge in that arena this season, which shows they are at least trying to avoid that past blunder.
The club is playing .500 ball WITHOUT their acquired ace. WITHOUT their star closer. And WITHOUT 6 of the 9 starters playing up to their established norms. As soon as Vidro, Wilky and Joh get their OPS production over .700, this club is going to be a monster. All that is needed is a bit of patience.
April 25th, 2008 at 10:27 pm Quote
This team is so pathetic.
And John McClaren is a certified idiot for having Lopez bunt.
April 25th, 2008 at 10:29 pm Quote
Stupid.. Lopez on a 4-4 night.. one of the only guys who is actually swinging a good bat.. yet we go with the predictable 9th inning bunt..
Ichiro is the runner… he can steal the bag anytime he wants to get into scoring positon (as he later does with Beltre up).. therefore why are we giving away an out with arguably our hottest hitter up?
Not to mention this team makes a living stranding runners, so just because Lopez sacs Ichiro over to 2nd with less than 2 out, doesnt mean much for this team..
I hate stupid predictable managing like that..
Update: Crosby robs us with a great diving play.. just like the Hunter catch in Anaheim a few days ago.. Other teams making the clutch plays..
April 25th, 2008 at 10:36 pm Quote
6 of the Mariners’ 13 losses have been by one run.
If Barry Bonds had started the year with us, I bet we win 4 of those, which would put us 1st in the AL West.
April 26th, 2008 at 1:14 am Quote
112, 113, 114… megadittos.
You hear about teams that are one bat short? 80% of the time that’s a cliche. Not this time, baby.
……………….
You’ve got $115M worth of talent here. And that isn’t lost on Chan Ho Park or Albert Belle contracts. You’ve got Felix and Bedard, Morrow and Putz, Ichiro and a $60M lineup, a deep rotation. Compared to, say, the A’s, this roster is LOADED.
The management of this team just has all kinds of problems getting things to click.
And from where I sit, it’s the ossified Entitled Vet syndrome that prevents the energy infusions, whether they be Morrow to the rotation, Clement to DH, Bonds, Junior, Wlad for Wilkerson, whatever…
……………..
In the interests of fairness…
1) Beltre was inches from the game-tying single in the 9th. Great play by Crosby or we’re having a different conversation.
2) I give them credit for going out and getting Bedard. But the electricity that he would provide has been lost with the DL…
There is a “straw that stirs the drink” factor in sports, and when Bedard and Putz went down, I wish they’d have been more alert to the electricity factor.
They were willing to bench Cetty for Frank Thomas — now. There’s no good reason they can’t do that with Clement — now.
April 26th, 2008 at 1:19 am Quote
Geoff Baker had a terrific point on the 9th-inning bunt:
Asking for Jose Lopez to coordinate on-the-windup with Ichiro on the SB/bunt decision, as if Lopez were Wes Welker breaking off a split-section option route for Tom Brady …
As a wannabe coach myself, I wouldn’t DREAM of putting that kind of pressure on my players unless they had done it ROUTINELY in situations that had lower leverage.
I put that one in the poor decision category.
April 26th, 2008 at 1:23 am Quote
.
BTW, not meaning to be too harsh on the local boyz…
Being down 1 in the 9th, catching a break with the leadoff bunt…
for the next guy to pop up a bunt, that is UG-LY. That’s the kind of thing that says to the other team, we’re soft, we don’t think we can win.
I’m not saying they’re losers; they’re not. But that 9th inning was the kind of 9th inning that 110-loss teams put up against you.
April 26th, 2008 at 4:28 am Quote
Doc…Gamedays will return shortly. I’ve been on the road…travelled to Oswego Wednesday/Thursday to accept an awared Friday from my alma mater in Oswego and am driving back today…hopefully will be home in time to post a gameday for tonight’s Oakland game…Bedard back to the hill facing some rookie named Smith.
It sure would be nice if God didn’t hate the Mariners. I mean really…why is it that when Anaheim plays Boston, all three of threir friggin starts contract the flu the night they’re supposed to pitch against the Halos…meanwhile the Mariners getting bombed with ridiculous tiny injuries…groin pulls, ribcage swelling, tight calves, sore thumbs, sore shoulders…the string of annoying problems is really starting to tick me off.
April 26th, 2008 at 4:52 am Quote
Good stuff!
……………….
I realize people don’t mean anything by it, but in my house we have to avoid references to Deity that are ironic. No harm meant, I know.
………………..
why is it that when Anaheim plays Boston, all three of threir starts contract the flu the night they’re supposed to pitch against the Halos
It really *does* seem like this April has been snakebitten. I know exactly what you’re getting at.
Daniel Cabrera has 65% lousy games, and 25% good games, and 10% unhittable (like the young Randy Johnson) …. and of course against us he walks 0 men.
Just seems like every SP we draw is at the top of his game, and everybody LAA sees they catch a break, and Bedard hasn’t made either of his Angels starts, and the second LAA series we had neither of our aces, and the BABIP has been .032, and tonight Beltre’s game-tying single was eight inches too far to the left…
I’m completely down with your point on this one. IMHO the dice have rolled terribly for the M’s the first 25 games.
Wouldn’t it be nice if one of these years, everything went right, and Felix and Bedard were a combined 9-1 on April 30, and the club was 16-7 or something?
Spent the century’s karma in 2001.
April 26th, 2008 at 6:54 am Quote
93 OPS+ is not gonna get it done. We know Ichiro will revive and that he’s having his customary April. But the lack of offense is making everyone not named Ibanez or Lopez press. Even though Beltre’s numbers look OK, look at how few RBIs he has. Granted, the two guys in front of him have cleaned up somewhat, but it looks to me like we have the “bad” Beltre showing up whenever the game is on the line.
Preseason prognositaction that the M’s need one more bat are being vindicated.
April 26th, 2008 at 1:51 pm Quote
Preseason prognosticatiosn were that the Mariners needed one more bat OR they needed Lopez and Sexson to hit.
They have the Lopez and Sexson part…if those two hit fine this year…the rest of the bats will come around.
April 26th, 2008 at 2:39 pm Quote
Jose Lopez, as well as he is doing has an OPS+ of 102. Sexson is 103.
Either they need to do more, or we still need another bat.
April 26th, 2008 at 2:41 pm Quote
I’d wait to June to judge whether Lopez has come around… Lopez in April:
2006: .274/.300/.491 (.791)
2007: .323/.333/.484 (.817)
2008: .319/.320/.415 (.735)
He’s been a historically good starter… the question is how he’ll perform over the next several months.
April 26th, 2008 at 2:43 pm Quote
Of course what really worries me is that in typical fashion the M’s will manuever with the speed of an aircraft carrier and not call up Clement or deal with RF until July.
April 26th, 2008 at 2:44 pm Quote
To me the Mariners early plate discipline has started to dissipate, and we’re starting to see Beltre and Sexson increasingly display the swing of a player who’s overanxious in key situations. Why? Because too many players are currently black holes in the lineup (Kenji, Wilky, Cetty) and Ichiro has not yet put April in his rear view mirror.
April 27th, 2008 at 6:20 am Quote
The Mariners’ three-game losing streak was mostly bad luck IMHO…and the PythagenMatt didn’t suffer much from losing three one-run games. Expect a rebound in the immediate near future.
April 29th, 2008 at 4:41 am Quote
*sigh*
I guess we have to start taking Oakland seriously…their roster still doesn’t read like a real winner to me but they refuse to go away.
April 29th, 2008 at 8:34 am Quote
Why is Oakland winning?
Pitching, pitching, pitching.
At this point, the Oakland offense has ONE player posting an .800 OPS, (Mike Sweeney). I’m not counting the weekend worth of Thomas as a valid data set.
However, Oakland currently has *ONE* starting pitcher with an ERA over 3.00. That’s not a misprint. The club has FIVE (5) starting pitchers with an ERA of 3.00 or LESS. Okay, everyone who expects the Oakland As will finish 2008 with five pitchers having an ERA of 3 or better, raise their hands?
Yes, if Oakland continues allowing 3.48 runs per game, (a full half point better than Boston in 2007), they will certainly make the playoffs. I personally do not believe for a minute that the Oakland rotation is ACTUALLY *SIX* (6) Cy Young candidates, (Blanton with a 4.07 ERA is the worst of the lot at the moment).
I’d sooner believe that Tampa will remain the 2nd best pitching in the AL, (where they are currently), than Oakland will remain where they are. Why? Because Tampa has a 3.36 team ERA and Kazmir hasn’t even pitched yet.
Sadly, people just don’t get April in MLB. Oakland is every bit as real as Baltimore and Tampa are, (the two teams tied for first in the AL East). They are for real the same way the ChiSox offense is for real, (14th in BA, but 4th in runs scored). Truthfully, Carlos Quentin has a BETTER shot at sustaining his current 1077 OPS all season than Rich Harden has of delivering his 0.82 ERA in September.
The Ms currently have the same record as Cleveland and a better record than Detroit. And come September, I *STILL* believe it is much more likely that they’ll be needing to beat out Cleveland and Detroit than they will Oakland.
April 29th, 2008 at 9:32 am Quote
That is essentially what I think as well, Sandy…the Mariners are getting similarly great starting pitching (by three true outcomes)…Felix, Bedard, Silva with ERAs below 3…Wash with an ERA below 4…Batista hasn’t gotten hot yet…and if he falters…Dickey waiting.
The Mariners are much closer to winning than Oakland on paper…but I’m starting to lose my patience waiting for things to turn around. :\
May 1st, 2008 at 6:25 am Quote
OK…I don’t feel so bad about our 85/5 win pace (by PythagenMatt) anymore…our offensive problems are OVER to the extent that Wlad and Clement get to bat in crucial situations.
May 2nd, 2008 at 6:49 am Quote
Then again, with Putz hurt, Lowe ineffective and the Mariners too slow to recognize those facts, I can’t say I’m optimistic about our bullpen.
May 6th, 2008 at 7:58 am Quote
The lowest the Ms dropped in PythagenMatt last year after game 20 was 78.8 prorated wins (this happened when Seattle dropped to 20-22 - just just before they got hot for the first time. This year we’re definitely off to a worse start…we’d better get hot soon.
May 11th, 2008 at 10:55 pm Quote
Yep…that losing streak was among the worst I’ve ever witnessed from the Mariners. No guarantees that it’s over, but today’s win felt good. Ms definitely have some character flaws that need to be addressed if we ever want to be a contending team.
Meanwhile, Atlanta goes in the books as the unluckiest team at the moment…they’re playing like a world series contender and have only a .500-ish record to show for it. Unlikely to continue their torrid play…the Tampa Bay Devil Rays, the Florida Marlins and the St. Louis Cardinals. But I guess we’ll see.
May 12th, 2008 at 8:56 am Quote
Re: “character flaws”
Washburn to the Pirates for any Class A shlub.
Somebody has to be the boss, and that guy has to go. Letting selfish whiners dictate your lineup and/or clubhouse dynamic is never the right answer. (I don’t even care if it means Baek instead of Dickey or Morrow. Give the man a ticket elsewhere.)
May 12th, 2008 at 9:21 am Quote
Washburn, Jose Lopez and Richie Sexson all need to get traded. They’re all bad influences on this team in completely different ways.
Washburn - for being about himself and not about the team
Sexson - for being mentally weak (stress = failure)
Lopez - for being mentally LAZY
May 12th, 2008 at 3:03 pm Quote
Matt are you the guy who invented Sabermetrics?
May 12th, 2008 at 4:58 pm Quote
LOL…no? I’m just a member of SABR (the Society for American Baseball Research) and, I’d like to think, a very good practitioner of sabermetric principles and a creative thinker.
May 12th, 2008 at 5:20 pm Quote
#136/137…how ’bout Sabermattrics?
May 12th, 2008 at 5:33 pm Quote
I like it…LOL I do have a rather unique brand of analysis evidently…a lot of sabermetricians I speak to regularly don’t think like I do when it comes to how to approach metric creation as a problem solving tool.
That, BTW, isn’t to say that I’m right and they’re not. I’ve been on the wrong side of many debates in the past and I’m sure it will happen many more times…LOL I just think my insistence on refusing to accept fuzzy math or flawed data when I can try to purify the data first can work well in concert with other approaches. PythagenMatt is an example of how I try to fix perceived problems with existing data. I see a problem with the data….I figure out what the logical error might be, and try to start from a firmer logical base. In this case: blowout games and inconsistent teams throw off the seasonal data…so…how do you fix that? Look game by game.
May 12th, 2008 at 6:16 pm Quote
I’d just like to use this opportunity to ask one more time:
“WHERE THE (explitive) IS R.A. DICKEY????????”
When you’ve got a 5-0 lead and your starter gets shelled to even it up, the guy you bring into the game HAS TO BE BETTER THAN CHA SEUNG BAEK.
This is a game we HAVE to win the way we’ve been hitting…we can’t have this kind of game get away just because our only long reliever is the the worst pitcher in baseball.
May 12th, 2008 at 6:43 pm Quote
Also have to wonder why Jose Lopez is incapable of catching the baseball on a SB attempt. Three times I’ve seen hi drop a perfect throw by Johjima to waste an out. Lopez is a loser. The sooner he leaves, the happier I’ll be.
May 12th, 2008 at 7:40 pm Quote
At some point you’ll have to stop blaming Lopez for everything.. there are probably 15-20 or so other guys on the 25 man who deserve more criticism..
Same with Baek.. how bout u get on the #1 starter who blows a 5 run lead in 2 innings of work?
Seriously, you’re ripping Baek every chance u get, cause of what? Cause he gave up 5 runs in a game where our starter walked the ballpark and put is in a 4-0 hole in the 2nd innings??
And you are bagging on Lopez cause in the same game he let a bleeder get through the infield??
Didnt we lose that game like 11-2 or something.. get over it Matt.. much more pressing issues that should be addressed.. and plenty of more worthy players who deserve the label of “loser”
May 12th, 2008 at 8:09 pm Quote
How aobut now NYM? Routine grounder to second and Lopez plays it like a $%&*(%^( little leaguer.
The man is a gutless loser and needs to be traded as soon as possible.
Baek pitched horribly today and got a lot of help from overaggressive Rangers, but my point wasn’t to rag on Baek…my point was to rag on the Mariners for forcing Bedard to pitch when he didn’t have it (thus blowing the lead) because their best long relief option isn’t good enough to be trusted. If Baek isn’t on this team and Dickey is, I guarantee McLaren would ahve gone to the pen much earlier than he did.
I’m all over Baek because he’s not a viable long relief option and we have one sitting in AAA going to waste because we are afraid to lose Baek…it’s EXTREMELY frustrating.
It’s also extremely frustrating to watch Lopez hack it like a Bush League loser every time a ball comes to him in a high pressure situation. He’s afraid to fail on the field and it shows every single time. The man is a born loser.
May 12th, 2008 at 8:12 pm Quote
BTW, he also needs to spend some time in the weight room or something…he must lead the universe in warning track flyouts.
May 12th, 2008 at 8:36 pm Quote
How many darn guys does Lowe have to walk before the braindead manager realizes he should take him out, if he wants to have any chance at a 9th inning comback..
Ridiculous.. 4 walks in 1 IP..
May 12th, 2008 at 8:42 pm Quote
*sigh*…he didn’t have anyone else to go to…Morrow just worked yesterday and they’re still taking it easy on his workload, and they had no other righties down there with Green being so overworked. They had to stick with the righty til they got to Hamilton.
It sure would help matters if we had Dickey and Corcoran up here and stopped wasting a roster spot on Baek.
May 12th, 2008 at 9:19 pm Quote
Oh god.. can this season get any worse.. ridiculous comeback capped by Johjima waking up from his coma.. Morrow comes in a blazes through 4 straight guys via K.. then gets taken yard by Ramon (bleepin) Vasquez..
Another loss.. this one of the crushing variety.. just terrible
May 12th, 2008 at 9:19 pm Quote
Can someone please explain to me how someone can strikeout four guys in a row and then give up a home run to a utility infielder? Whatever, never mind.
May 12th, 2008 at 9:33 pm Quote
That was bad luck. Vazquez closed his eyes, guessed fastball and started his swing way way early…the ole’ “swing hard in case you hit it” and he hit it.
It happens even to the best of pitchers. This one really…really hurt though.
Johijima, BTW, has quietly been racking up the hits lately and his BA is up to around .230 now. He’s coming alive, which could solve many of the our offensive problems.
May 12th, 2008 at 9:38 pm Quote
15 rows deep off a centered straight fastball ain’t luck. It was a bad pitch combined with a good swing…
The M’s have had an awful lot of bad luck now for a lot of years, but I can’t count this one.
May 12th, 2008 at 9:40 pm Quote
it wasn’t centered…watch the replay again, Padna…it was on the inside corner a little above the knees. It wasn’t his BEST pitch, but it was not centered like Bedard’s pitches were. And yes…Vazquez put a good swing on it…no doubt about that. I still don’t think it was an example of Morrow pitching poorly.
May 12th, 2008 at 9:57 pm Quote
It doesn’t matter why we lost, it’s still more than I can handle. I’m going to Jug Town, send a cab in a couple of hours.
May 12th, 2008 at 10:14 pm Quote
yes…I’m as frustrated as you…I assure you. I nearly broke my hand pounding my desk in utter frustration when Lopez booted that easy play in the 6th.
Lopez is a total clown…I’m sorry but there is just no defending this idiot.
May 13th, 2008 at 7:10 am Quote
140:
R.A. Dickey is in Omaha (as are all the Rainiers):
6.2 IP, 10 H, 4 R, 3 ER, 1 BB, 4 K, 1 HR
For the year:
42.2 IP, 3.38 ERA, 5.27 K/9, 1.03 BB/9, 1.36 WHIP
A knuckleballer who doesn’t walk anybody.
May 13th, 2008 at 10:00 am Quote
The high hit rate is AAA…not Dickey. Our AAA team is mostly bad fielders except Chen and Reed. The K rate is a bit lower than I’d like, but with no walks, I’m thinking he’s just going right after most of these guys…might be a little more careful up here (more walks and more Ks).
I knew where Dickey actually was…I was just expressing my frustrating that he’s not HERE instead of Baek.
May 13th, 2008 at 12:40 pm Quote
Are we sure we can’t make Wlad into a second baseman? (TIC) Coming in with no practice he’d probably have made that play in the 7th.
*sigh*…I’m still really ticked off at Lopez.