Originally published 12.6.07. Edit to add, D-O-V's take on this move turned out to be from another planet. We thought that we were stating the obvious, but as so often, we quickly found out that most amigos were diametrically opposed on it. LOL.
Every time this happens 'round this town, which is most of the time, I think of Jim Bowden explaining to Gary Huckabay why he doesn't hire a sabermetrician: "there isn't a dime's worth of difference between you guys. You like pitchers who strike out a lot of people, walk very few, and keep the ball on the ground. No kidding. Us dumb-bunny scouts woulda never thought of that."
It's not about what they did done, Jim… it's about what they will do…
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1. Bill James once pointed out that sabermetricians have a different, 30,000-foot, view of the forest than do field personnel. He opined that this view is not superior taking all things into account, but that it is definitely different.
There are times you do want a close-up look at the moss on the trees. There are times you want to be able to see a fire starting from four miles away.
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2. James, a year or two ago, wrote a really nice article about knuckleballs throughout baseball history.
He didn't fire off a few paragraphs venting his personal bias. He went back a hundred years and asked, "if you took these pitchers as a whole, did they do better than expected or worse than expected?"
He found that knuckleballers, submariners, spitballers, etc, did extremely well as a group, even before you adjust for the fact that these are the pitchers who are starting off with no talent.
He believes, if I understand Bill right, that the knuckleball is the most underrated pitch in baseball, and that as baseball evolves, eventually every staff will come to have three or four knuckleballers on it.
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3. He opines that the reason the knuckleball is underused and underrated, is because it makes coaches feel uncomfortable and out of control.
The pitcher will spin one, and it will get hit 425 feet, and the coach will go, "See? You just can't trust that pitch."
The fact that a Tim Wakefield's translated HR rate may be below average is forgotten; it feels like the batter may hit one out on every pitch, even though the knuckleballer may be giving up fewer HR's than Jarrod Washburn or Felix Hernandez.
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4. D-O-V also loves knuckleballers and submariners, for the reasons given above.
Among other things, knuckleballers run low BABIP's — because the hitters are taking pepper swings. They also tend to have little or no platoon splits (check Dickey's LH/RH splits).
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5. There is no way to sabermetrically project R.A. Dickey. How do you statistically predict whether Dickey is going to get the feel on a knuckleball? You don't.
You can pretty well forget trying to predict Dickey through performance analysis. You'd have to stand on the sidelines with him … or simply ask him how it's going.
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6. That said, Dickey is 2 years old as a (knuckle) pitcher. In a lot of ways you could consider him a 19-year-old, including in terms of the number of years he has left. :- )
In 2006 he had a 4.2/3.1 control ratio with the knuckler; in 2007 he improved to 6.3/3.2, which is better than Wakefield lately.
Here's a cool article, just after the conversion to the knuckle, in which the Ranger catcher Barajas is excited about his development.
Dickey was named the PCL pitcher of the year, going onto an 8-2, 2.57 streak in his next 14 starts ("since rejoining the rotation in June") for a juggernaut Nashville club.
In other words, when last seen, Dickey was trashing the PCL hotel room, so to speak. Here are his minor league splits.
The question on R.A. Dickey is really as simple as, "how well is he coming along with the knuckler?" The answer, in this case is, "he's on a hot roll."
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7. Edit to add, Dr. Naka pointed out a superb THT article that is sabermetrics at its best.
Few if any MLB teams would have had that information before THT published.
We note bemusedly, however, that the hard data doesn’t really change much on the field, in terms of whether you pick up a knuckleballer, or in terms of what his pitch selection should be. :- ) As usual, the players were pretty well following the best course of action, intuitively.
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8. Dickey doesn't cost the Mariners much … just a 25-man roster slot that they can bail on later if they want (for a net loss of $25k).
For what it's worth, R.A. Dickey is precisely the kind of move that the mainframe would make if it were GM.
Cheers,
Dr D












December 6th, 2007 at 12:02 pm Quote
Heh…was thinking pretty much the same thing. Interestingly, I remember RA Dickey as a guy who could throw pretty darned hard too…is there any evidence that a guy with a low 90s fastball AND a knuckler is better off than a guy with a mid 70s fastball (Wakefield) and a knuckler? When RA Dickey first arrived in Texas he was being billed as having a rubber arm and good life on his fastball. Now he’s a knuckleballer…very different than the history of your average knuckleballing secret weapon.
December 6th, 2007 at 12:58 pm Quote
Have we signed him??
December 6th, 2007 at 1:05 pm Quote
Yes. In the Rule V draft.
December 6th, 2007 at 1:17 pm Quote
Careful there Coastie. :- ) It drives the blog-o-sphere up the wall when they see it written as V instead of 5.
It’s the ultimate litmus test of baseball literacy. C’mon, I’d hate to think you were commenting on baseball without having read all of MLB’s policies and procedures.
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Here is a good article on the Rule V draft … check the names out. CHRISTY MATHEWSON was taken in the Rule V?
December 6th, 2007 at 1:30 pm Quote
Johan Santana was taken in rule V.
December 6th, 2007 at 2:07 pm Quote
Looks like Matt Olkin likes him.
http://www.komoradio.com/marinersradio/shannon/12195021.html
December 6th, 2007 at 2:15 pm Quote
Mat (one T) is an amigo of Bill James, and clearly Mat is going off James’ logic posted above.
There isn’t a ton to go on, sabermetrically, in terms of K/BB etc. But there is the thinking structure published by James. Kudos to Mat if that’s where he’s coming from with the recommendation.
December 6th, 2007 at 2:45 pm Quote
When I saw him in 2006, in Tacoma, I wasn’t impressed at all. He got shelled, IIRC, by Tacoma’s bats (and in July, 2006, there wasn’t much special there), but since he was relatively new in his conversion to a knuckleballer, it’s reasonable to assume he’s a better pitcher now. Taking PCL Pitcher-of-the-Year honors is certainly nothing to scoff at.
This minor, small, low-risk, medium-reward move is actually one of Bavasi’s strengths.
December 6th, 2007 at 3:00 pm Quote
1. They go get Dickey.
2. Baker says they are now once again the frontrunners for Kuroda (since he concludes they’ve probably gone to four years).
3. And they are still trying to get Bedard.
They are clearly very serious about starting pitching (as they oughta be).
Dickey seems like a great move in this context. Paul: they’re saying his knuckler started to “click” in June of 07, after which he was 10-2, 2.52.
December 6th, 2007 at 3:24 pm Quote
THT has a nice article about knucklebaler.
BTW can Johjima catch it?
December 6th, 2007 at 3:29 pm Quote
knucklers are notoriously late to develop. It wouldn’t surprise me if Dickey went on to run 15 straight good years from here. He could bust, but there’s no risk and the worst case is…he’s a nice garbage-time long man.
December 6th, 2007 at 3:36 pm Quote
Paul: they’re saying his knuckler started to “click” in June of 07, after which he was 10-2, 2.52.
Yeah, that’s why earlier in the offseason I was sorta “meh” in the offseason, but at the time I didn’t know he was the 2007 PCL Pitcher of the Year. Nor did I know that he was still very new with the knuckler at the time I saw him in person. Now that I know these two things, I’m actually ecstatic that the M’s signed him. If, indeed, the knuckler’s clicked with him, then, yeah, I don’t care how old he is, this is a fantastic move for the M’s. I’m almost tempted to say that even if the M’s land Bedard or Santana, getting Dickey could be an even bigger move. An effective knuckler is a very valuable weapon to have in a team’s arsenal…
December 6th, 2007 at 3:57 pm Quote
That article Dr. Naka mentioned is THT at its best, which is to say sabermetrics at its best.
Few if any MLB teams would have had that information before THT published.
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We note bemusedly, however, that the hard data doesn’t really change much, in terms of whether you pick up a knuckleballer, or in terms of what his pitch selection should be. :- ) As usual, the players were pretty well following the best course of action, intuitively.
December 6th, 2007 at 4:06 pm Quote
.
=== THE SECOND PITCH ===
The Hardball Times reminds us of the same thing that Jim Bouton emphasized in 1969 — that a knuckleballer’s biggest problem is when he has to throw a second pitch on 3-0, 3-1.
Tim Wakefield, good as he is, doesn’t really get hurt by walking guys or by spinning knucklers. He gets hurt when he has to throw a 75 fastball that hitters are ready for. This follows all of baseball history…
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R.A. Dickey, by contrast, had fringe MLB stuff not considering the knuckleball.
According to Sportsnet, Dickey has a “tremendous” splitter.
Johnny Sain IIRC told Bouton that when he had to throw a fastball, if he could just get anything with any kind of wrinkle on it, he could limit the damage. You can see how important a decent-quality second pitch would be for a knuckleballer.
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The flutterballer tends to lose the feel for his other pitches, as you might expect, but last year Dickey was still sitting “85-86″ mph with his FB and throwing it a lot (per Sportsnet).
If you gave Tim Wakefield an 85 fastball and a good forkball, he might lead the league in ERA…
Eyes slideways as to the quality of Dickey’s secondary pitches. That could explain why he was “the best pitcher in the PCL” last year.
December 6th, 2007 at 4:08 pm Quote
.
And, of course, the whole experiment stands or falls with the attitudes of the M’s coaches.
If they’re open-minded and patient, Dickey is a really intriguing option for the #5 SP slot.
If they’re old-school, skeptical, and shaking their heads in the dugout when Dickey walks three guys, it will be a depressing train wreck from day one.
December 6th, 2007 at 4:21 pm Quote
In that sense, it’s an advantage that he’s Rule 5 instead of NRI, since they will have to keep him and pitch him or else send him back to the Twins.
December 6th, 2007 at 4:31 pm Quote
Great pernt Spec.
At any rate, prob’ly we’d agree that Dickey is the most intriguing Rule 5′er we can remember the M’s nabbing, him and Fernando Vina.
December 6th, 2007 at 5:10 pm Quote
Dr.D IF you like the THT article how about get the link in your article.
December 6th, 2007 at 5:46 pm Quote
http://hardballreview.wordpress.com/2007/12/07/ra-dickey/#respond
Here’s etowncoug on R.A. Dickey and his chances of success in Seattle. The biggest obstacle is the Mariner coaching staff? I think he’s spot on.
December 6th, 2007 at 6:58 pm Quote
BTW, the consensus around the net is shifting on Dickey, which is interesting to watch.
Around the blog-o-sphere, Dickey was seen as a pointless but fun move that won’t harm anything, but won’t accomplish anything, either. As usual, D-O-V’s take was from another planet.
Every time this happens, which is 80% of the time, I think of Jim Bowden explaining to Gary Huckabay why he doesn’t hire a sabermetrician: “there isn’t a dime’s worth of difference between you guys. You like pitchers who strike out a lot of people, walk very few, and keep the ball on the ground. No kidding. Us dumb-bunny scouts woulda never thought of that.”
Heh…
December 6th, 2007 at 7:00 pm Quote
Absolutely love the pickup here…am only afraid that he’s not going to be used in an efficient manner (as in, they might decide he’s strictly the mop-up man), but if he’s in the mix as the #5 starter, this frees the club up (in their minds at least, for whatever reason) to part with Morrow. Now that they have a bona fide ‘veteran’ in the mix for the #5 SP slot, they could rest easy knowing that they did their job in ensuring that a buncha rooks don’t take the team over.
Dickey is one of the most intriguing pickups the M’s have made in awhile. Good job, FO.
December 6th, 2007 at 7:07 pm Quote
Also…this frees them up to quietly and safely jettison HoRam.
December 6th, 2007 at 9:23 pm Quote
I’m extremely skeptical that Dickey throws a knuckler that can get out major league hitters, but if he does he’s going to be one heck of a pick up. I don’t see a middle ground on this one.
December 6th, 2007 at 10:57 pm Quote
I’m with you 100%, coug. But this is a literal *NO*-risk/high upside move. $25k downside, and the upside is a serviceable back-end starter who could pitch for us for years to come. Either he’s figured it out, in which case he’s gonna stick around for a looooooong time, or he’s just another journeyman trying to salvage his ML-career.
Great move, either way. Fire a dozen of these shots and you’re gonna get yourself a few quality players for nothing.
December 7th, 2007 at 1:42 am Quote
.
Which is actually an interesting point.
Why could a knuckleball retire Wlad Balentien and Adam Jones and Bryan Lahair, but not Richie Sexson and Adrian Beltre?
I’m not denying that maybe there is such a thing as a knuckler that misses a fringe ML’er’s bat, but gets hit by an average ML’er. But I’d have guessed that if it breaks four inches randomly, it retires either one.
It would be interesting to see if the deltas between Knuckleballer X’s lines in AAA and MLB are any smaller than those of the average pitcher. I bet they are.
December 7th, 2007 at 1:56 am Quote
The difference of course is that Nick Green and Oswaldo Navarro are the worst hitters in a AAA lineup and YuBet and JoL are the worst hitters in a major league lineup. I can certainly see a gimmick pitch messing up one and not the other.
December 7th, 2007 at 2:20 am Quote
Yeah Coug, I can see that applying to an 89 fastball or to a mediocre slurve.
If the pitch is fluttering around and everybody’s taking their pepper swings at the ball trying to hit it with a willow switch, why is one guy better able to hit it than another?
I suppose Tim Wakefield probably gets hit harder by Ichiro than by Willie Bloomquist, just to pull two names out of my ear… just for fun let me go check that, honestly, no peeking…
Heh. Ichiro can’t touch Wakefield; Bloomie’s 2-for-2.
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I know nobody’s going to believe that I did that honestly…
Here is Wakefield against the M’s hitters, sorted by OPS. You could probably have some fun noodling around, seeing whether the Adrian Beltres of the game are frequently 0-for-11 against Wakefield, due to refusing to cut down their swings.
The M’s 3 best hitters historically, Sexson Beltre Ichiro, are 7-for-46 lifetime against Wakefield. Not that the case is closed, of course.
Vidro, a tremendous contact hitter, is 1-for-8.
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Bemusedly, I wonder whether the fringe players do surprisingly well against knucklers, since they are humble enough to try for a single.
December 7th, 2007 at 4:21 am Quote
In a macho league, I wouldn’t be surprised if guys who live and die by the fastball get their hearts ripped out by guys like Wakefield.
The question for me isn’t whether Dickey has a knuckleball that can get fringe guys out but not major leaguers since I think that’s unlikely. The question for me whether Dickey has a knuckleball he can repeat time and time again with 99% consistency at ANY level. He was RED HOT in 2007…that doesn’t mean he’ll always be in the zone and getting his knuckleball to dance.
December 7th, 2007 at 6:27 am Quote
Anyway the cold weather and thick air of sea-level Safeco will be a plus for a knuckleballer.
That’s physics!
Edit: Or maybe not!
Just checked Wakefield split at Safeco. Many BBs
Ball moves to much and cannot find strike zone
December 7th, 2007 at 8:25 am Quote
So does he still throw the “tremendous splitter”? If so, seems like knuckler-splitter would be an almost unhittable combo when you can mix in a mid80s fastball. Has anyone ever had that toolbox?
You’d think a team that got 145 wins from an aging lefty with “no stuff” would be willing to see what the guy can do. Seems like he might get Moyer-level confusion without the Moyer-level out-preparing and out-thinking. And if your game is based on that, there shouldn’t be that much difference between AAA and MLB.
December 7th, 2007 at 8:42 am Quote
I’ve often wondered what impact knuckleballers might have on the guy behind them in the rotation. I could see results going either direction.
1) After spending a day swatting at butterflies, batters may have screwed up their swings/timings (just a bit), and it might take a game to return to normalcy.
2) After spending a day swatting at butterflies, batters are so hyped up about facing ‘real’ pitching that they are concentrating just that little extra bit more and there might be a residual beneficial side-effect from having faced a knuckler the day before.
Same question in regards to relievers coming in behind a knuckler.
I remember thinking that Foulke was a “perfect” closer for Oakland when he was there, because his change-up was so drastically different than what the rest of the rotation was throwing - (either really hard stuff - or hard breaking stuff). I wouldn’t, for example, have been comfortable with Foulke closing for someone like Maddux.
Just some stray thoughts.
December 7th, 2007 at 9:51 am Quote
Didn’t Buhner once say that he hated facing a knuckle ball pitcher because it messed up his timing for another game or two after the fact?
If they stick him in the pen, can you imagine him coming in relief of Felix?
December 7th, 2007 at 10:29 am Quote
SABRMatt wrote:
trust me… wakefield’s not always in the zone either.
what’s the current list of pro knucklers? wakefield obviously. dickey. the AAA sox charlies, haeger with the white and zink with the red. eddie bonine in the detroit system. i guess lincecum doesn’t count.
December 7th, 2007 at 11:29 am Quote
I lived in Texas from 1999 - 2004 (went to school in Abilene Texas, you may have heard of Abilene Christian Universirty, Dr. D?), so I had to listen to a lot of Texas Ranger Baseball during the summers. And it just so happened that Dickey was nreaking into the league at that time as well, and I remember the boradcast team talking glowingly about “Tha Thang”, which was Dickeys Change Up (spliter, change, sometimes broadcasters cant tell the difference). Anyways it was the only thing tat kept him in the league and it was quite a good picth. Whenever one of your pitches has its own nickname you know it must be pretty good
Anyways, I always viewed him as a pretty valuable asset even without the knucle (back of the end starter / long man), so now that he has three pitches to work from, one maybe a potentially good knuckle, one a nicknamed splitter/change, and one a keep em honest mid to high eightes fastball, I could see R.A. taking the league by storm and being one of the “Big Surprises” of next year!
December 7th, 2007 at 11:30 am Quote
From Sportsnet: “Dickey is a versatile and durable pitcher, partly because he was born without ligaments in his elbow. His best pitch is a tremendous splitter, which he uses to induce a ton of groundballs. ”
What does the born with no ligaments thing mean?!?!?! Is it just TIC?
December 7th, 2007 at 11:33 am Quote
Wow, I guess it is true. I guess we won’t ever have to worry about TJ surgry for Dickey:
He has no UCL
December 7th, 2007 at 11:34 am Quote
That’s pretty good, Wily Mo - Haeger got hit hard this year, and Zink seems to have stalled out as a good AA pitcher. Bonine is the clear up and comer.
My question is: why are we comparing Dickey to Wakefield, easily the best knuckleballer since Tom Candiotti, and maybe since Hough? Dickey just learned the pitch, and had some success with it. Not enough success to avoid getting cut after the 2007 season; the M’s picked him in Rule 5 when they moved too slowly in minor league free agency. A lot of people get some value from MiLB free agents, but let’s compare him to the Joel Hanrahans of the world and not the great Rule 5 steals(legit prospects blocked in their org).
It’s possible that baseball aesthetics prevent managers from seeing the true possibility in the knuckler, but there’s at least as much chance that many fans OVERrate the dang thing. RA Dickey was struggling, and so he came up with a new pitch in 2003 - the Thang (half splitter, half slider). When that wasn’t the key to MLB success, he comes up with a new pitch - the knuckler. Yeah, he had tremendous success last year, but let’s just remember that Campillo, Dana Eveland and Kevin Jarvis have had a lot of sustained success in the PCL too.
In no way am I trashing this move - it’s a clear no-risk thing. But I’m not ready to compare him with the greatest knuckleballers of all time simply because his FB is better. I also think he was clearly behind Campillo last year too - another guy whose AAA success may not translate.
December 7th, 2007 at 11:46 am Quote
From everything I have seen / heard the “Thang” is a legit pitch it was just that he had nothing to go with it (except for a mid to high eighties fastball). So by adding another potentially very difficult to hit pitch it totally changes his outlook as a pitcher. Dr. D had it right up above Dickey should be looked at as a youngster coming out of college just now learning (or in in this case relearning) how to pitch. The thing that really makes R.A. interesting is that he will be one of the few Knuckleballers in recent memory that had a true second pitch.
December 7th, 2007 at 11:47 am Quote
R.A. stands for Robert Alan BTW. He must not have wanted to go by the name Bob, can’t say i blame him
December 7th, 2007 at 12:17 pm Quote
i think there’s still hope for haeger - he was hit hard, yes, but he’s still actually prospecty-young by the usual standards. you don’t even get to join the Knuckleballers’ Union until your 30th birthday. i’m monitoring him year-by-year in my keeper league and plan to pounce the moment there’s a sustained pulse. if that moment comes in 2015, so be it.
December 7th, 2007 at 12:31 pm Quote
Oh yeah, I’m not closing the book on Haeger (though i think I’m closing the book on Zink).
And OBF, i’m not saying that the Thang isn’t ‘legitimate’ or anything, it’s just that we’ve been down this road before: Dickey, almost out of baseball, gets new pitch, tries again. Last time, the results didn’t really change, though his GB rate went up. We’ll see what happens this time.
If his arsenal is now so intriguing, why was he out of a job a month or two ago?
December 7th, 2007 at 1:09 pm Quote
Absolutely - he is not Wakefield. (When last seen) he was a AAA knuckleball pitcher.
The question came up, is there a “AAAA knuckleball,” a knuckleball that minces up the Jeremy Reeds of the world, but that gets pounded by Ichiro.
Wakefield’s own track record might provide some clue, in principle, whether the better the hitter you are, the less problem a knuckleball gives you.
Or not. :- )
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Personally my guess is that if Wade Boggs could chop up a AAA lineup with his knuckleball, then major leaguers would run into issues too.
I doubt that there’s such a thing as a “AAAA knuckleball” — I think if it moves randomly, it’s going to be tough on anybody. Could be wrong.
December 7th, 2007 at 1:14 pm Quote
Again Doc…I don’t think it’s the quality of the knuckleball. I think it’s the consistency with which its thrown. The difference between a AAAA knuckler and a MLB knuckler has nothing to do with the quality of the knuckler…it has to do with whether the pitcher can make the thing do what he wants at least 9 times out of 10. Wakefield, like it or not, has become so darned good at the knuckleball that it dances well 9 times out of 10 and he can live on 80% knuckleballs.
We don’t know yet whether Dickey can do that.
December 7th, 2007 at 1:17 pm Quote
.
… however, the area in which Dickey does have to be concerned about the move to the majors, is when he throws his secondary pitches.
That is a legit difference between the AL and the PCL: when a pitcher throws an 87 fastball in a bad spot in Cheney, he has a decent chance of somebody topping it, or skying it 300 feet for a lazy out. The same pitch in the AL is going to be consistently mashed.
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If I were Mat Olkin, I wouldn’t be worried about the quality of Dickey’s knuckleball. Not if it has reached the point to where Dickey “was the best pitcher in AAA last year.”
But what I would be worried about, is how often does he throw his FB and “thang”, and how good are those pitches. THAT is what will determine his fate next spring, IMHO.
December 7th, 2007 at 1:20 pm Quote
Edit to add, #43, good put…
If he is spinning his knuckler, that’s practically an eephus pitch … and AAA batters are only too happy to accept the invitation.
Just my $0.02, but from what I’ve seen at Cheney, the difference isn’t that Bryan LaHair can’t hit a 70 mph eephus down the middle. :- )
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I’ll be extremely surprised if there are any issues with the consistency on Dickey’s knuckler. If there were, he’d get punished in AAA just like he would in the AL…
December 7th, 2007 at 2:02 pm Quote
I’ve seen pitchers get hot for 3 months and then never find it again though Doc…right now he’s just a guy coming off a career year.
December 7th, 2007 at 2:34 pm Quote
“Not if it has reached the point to where Dickey “was the best pitcher in AAA last year.”
The problem is that the list of guys who have the most success in the PCL isn’t exactly awe-inspiring. As I mentioned, it’s people like Kevin Jarvis, Campillo, or John Wasdin - guys who use deception and especially change of speeds to get guys off balance. Remember also that Dickey pitched a while in Oklahoma, which severely suppresses HRs, and Nashville, another HR suppressing park. Even last year, he gives up more HRs than the average pitcher, and if more people wait on the knuckler and walk, that’s a bad situation.
Who knows if there’s such a thing as a AAA knuckler - Charlie Haeger is the right test case for this, not Dickey. And the career of Charlie Zink seems to indicate that there IS such a thing as a AA knuckleball, as the poor kid keeps whipping up on AA, only to struggle in AAA. Anecdotal, but telling.
December 7th, 2007 at 3:08 pm Quote
That’s an interesting counter.
December 7th, 2007 at 3:22 pm Quote
Wily Mo,
Do you own a team in the Stratomatic Keeper League?
As for Dickey, it seems the quality of his knuckleball is going to determine his success. When you read the Wakefield article you see that there is a VAST difference in OPS (from 600 to 900) against depending on the quality of the break with the knuckleball.
Control of the pitch and attacking patterns can be learned…but if he doesn’t have a Wakefield esque knuckleball (or something close to it) he’ll probably never be an MLBer.
We need video, or a scouting report…
December 7th, 2007 at 6:21 pm Quote
BTW, Here’s Kevin Goldstein on 12.6 re: the Dickey selection.
He goes a different direction with his thoughts.
December 7th, 2007 at 6:24 pm Quote
#34 OBF … ya have a couple friends who went to Abilene.
interesting stuff on the “thang.” If he can keep the feel on that, while getting his knuckleball going, that’s a combo that Jim Bouton would have killed for. :- )
December 7th, 2007 at 11:55 pm Quote
Oddly enough, that’s how *all* of the great pitchers are in the baseball video games. They have an 88-92 FB, a splitter and a knuckleball…after like ten years of in-game time, every staff has a bona fide ace that prominently features and average FB and a knuckler.
Not sure where I was going with that…
December 7th, 2007 at 11:57 pm Quote
should edit the first sentence to include the fact that pitchers currently playing are exactly the same as their real-life counterparts (about 98% of the time, that is), but all the great FAKE characters feature knucklers.
December 8th, 2007 at 3:07 pm Quote
Was wondering about the success rate of PCL Pitchers of the Year. Well they’ve only been doing it since 2001. No idea what the criteria are, prior to ‘01 they picked one lefty and one righty. So here they are, good success rate so far:
Jason Hirsh 2006
Felix Hernandez 05
Scott Downs 04
Justin Duchscherer 03
Jeriome Robertson 02
Denny Stark 01
December 8th, 2007 at 3:23 pm Quote
Great post Geo. Maybe you feel like going over to b-ref.com and listing the above pitchers’ ERA+’s after they were promoted?
December 8th, 2007 at 9:47 pm Quote
I see Bill Bavasi making a big deal about how well Dickey has pitched during the second half of the 2007 season. I wonder why other GMs don’t see the same information and be willing to act on it?
Dickey seems to be the most ‘gritty veteran’ pickup in the rule 5 draft. LOL
Also, it seems odd that this is the same Bavasi who always seems to discount AAA and minor league stats, especially in Mariner’s prospect.
It will be very interesting to see how this plays out.
December 8th, 2007 at 11:53 pm Quote
MLB ERA+ first year after for each PCL POY
100 Hirsh ‘07
98 Felix
103 Downs
139 Duchscherer
86 Robertson
119 Stark
Promising.
December 9th, 2007 at 1:31 pm Quote
I expect the only reason R.A. was available was because of his age. If there is one thing that is undervalued right now it’s “old” minor league players. The Rangers must have assumed no one would consider picking someone his age and left him exposed to the draft for that reason.
Right now I would say he is probably more valuable than most of the starting pitchers available in the free agent market. I will also say that the Cactus League will be a very bad judge of his chances for success at the MLB level. So, the real question is, will the Mariners be willing to give him a decent chance on the roster next season? Are they committed to keeping him on the 25-man and actually using him when the season starts? Will Mac be willing to use him in innings that count?
I’m betting this is only a fall-back option. If Bavasi manages to pick up two pitchers in the off-season, there simply won’t be room on the roster for him come April and he will end up back in Texas. Still, it will be very interesting to watch his career, either with the Rangers or the Mariners. I wish him the best of luck wherever he ends up.
December 9th, 2007 at 1:48 pm Quote
Twins actually. The Twins picked him up as a minor league free agents just before this Rule V draft and own his rights now. Why they left him exposed when they’re in need of arms once they deal Santana is beyond me.
December 9th, 2007 at 7:28 pm Quote
Well, it’s tough - the Twins didn’t have room on the 40 man, and they won’t until a trade happens - and given that they’ll probably get more players back than they give up, they still have that problem.
But the larger point is that he was in the Brewers organization last year, and was then available to anyone, for free. The Twins probably thought they didn’t need to protect him, because ANYONE could’ve grabbed him for free about 3 weeks ago. Why would anyone go the rule 5 route when they could go the minor league FA route? I guess the M’s wanted him, but watched the Twins grab him before they could act. Of course, the M’s then moved in Rule 5. I think this has less to do with minor league vets being undervalued and more to do with the fact that guys who are minor league FAs don’t generally get picked in Rule 5 - why would they?
I think there’s something about minor league vets who get frozen out by their team either due to injury or 40 man problems. I thought Joel Hanrahan was a great pick by the Nats last year - of course, he ended up being terrible, but their costco pack of minor league FAs worked out: Tim Redding was successful. Those guys CAN be valuable, but I think that means teams should scout the minor league FA draft a bit harder.
As for if he’ll stick or not, I think the M’s fought hard to keep Sean White - that bodes well for RA’s M’s career.
December 9th, 2007 at 7:54 pm Quote
Indeed…I think Dickey will stick as a long reliever. If they trade for Bedard (assuming they sign Kuroda, which seems likely) then Washburn or Batista is SP5 (!)…if they just sign Kuroda, then Morrow is SP5…either way they can’t start Dickey. But he could make a useful long man.
December 9th, 2007 at 9:49 pm Quote
I don’t think too highly of Dickey. Players that move around from team to teams in a matter of months must have something in them that the acquiring teams don’t like. We have a few examples of our own: Blackley and Snelling. We regard both of them highly, and yet they do not have as much value in terms of helping the team
December 9th, 2007 at 11:32 pm Quote
*shrug*
He could easily not pan out…but I have no problem penciling him in as a long man for now.
December 10th, 2007 at 7:15 am Quote
There is no POTD of Sean White; so I make a comment here.
He was the rule 5 pick last year.
Check out his stats as a Cardenales de Lara:
http://mlb.mlb.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?n=Sean%20White&pos=P&sid=l135&t=p_pbp&pid=457461
Team League W L ERA G GS CG SHO SV IP H R ER HR BB SO GO/AO AVG
LAR VWL 3 1 1.86 5 5 0 0 0 29.0 20 7 6 1 4 13 2.85 .196
Remember his MLB stats has been very good when he was healthy. His ERA WHIP BB sky-rocketed due to (myth) injury.
Much better than that of Morrow:
http://mlb.mlb.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?n=Brandon%20Morrow&pos=P&sid=l135&t=p_pbp&pid=453344
Team League W L ERA G GS CG SHO SV IP H R ER HR BB SO GO/AO AVG
LAR VWL 0 2 4.05 4 4 0 0 0 20.0 22 12 9 2 5 16 1.44 .282
December 10th, 2007 at 8:14 am Quote
speaking of which, i still think you guys should try to get o’flaherty to change his name to “sean yellow”.
December 10th, 2007 at 8:38 am Quote
Now can the M’s go to sign him as a pitcher?
http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=4764968
December 10th, 2007 at 11:10 am Quote
BTW DrN…Morrow’s line is better than White’s…the only thing that makes White’s line “better” is the ERA. Morrow’s line is sabermetrically much more attractive.
February 28th, 2008 at 5:20 pm Quote
.
Dickey had a good outing on Wednesday, which you can read about in Geoff Baker’s game thread.
Apparently the M’s are seriously considering keeping Dickey, which not only gives them a rubber arm inning soaker, but also a very pleasant #6-7 starter.
Y’might enjoy a re-read of the Dec. 6, 2007 article above. Exec Sum:
1) D-O-V loves knucks and submarines, for reasons given above. The day may come when many staffs have 3 or 4 of them, according to James.
2) Dickey took up the knuck very recently, and has been improving on a steep curve. Last year he was the PCL Pitcher of the Year — the best pitcher on a great minor league team IIRC. (Too bad we don’t have a relegation system!)
3) D-O-V THOROUGHLY endorses R.A. Dickey for the 25-man roster — given that his knuck is still on a hot roll this spring — and he’d make an awesome hometown hero :- )
February 28th, 2008 at 6:04 pm Quote
Recently I’ve heard that Dickey throws a “hard” knucker as opposed to a soft one like Wakefield.
Considering that his fastball is decent, it could be that he one of those rare knuckle ball pitchers that does better in relief than starting.
Dickey as a reliever is very, very interesting..
February 28th, 2008 at 6:08 pm Quote
Dickey is a lock to make the team, they made that decision when they drafted him. The only debate now is over what debilitating injury is going to force him to spend two-months on the DL and then magically be healed when rosters expand in September.
I’m also excited about adding a knuckler to the staff, although this year is the worst time in a long time to do so. The rotation has 5-solid to great pitchers and the bullpen is full so he won’t get to pitch many meaningful innings and things won’t change after this year. He would have been much more valuable in any of the previous 4 seasons.
February 28th, 2008 at 6:10 pm Quote
How hard does he throw now, I don’t think I’ve seen any numbers from after his transformation?
February 28th, 2008 at 6:15 pm Quote
Today, his FB was supposedly coming in at 88
He throws hard enough to sneak one by you if you’re looking knuckleball.
February 28th, 2008 at 6:36 pm Quote
Last year, Wakefield averaged 75.62mph with his fastball and 66.76mph with his knuckleball.
Apparently Dickey throws BOTH his fasball and knuckleball harder.
February 28th, 2008 at 6:42 pm Quote
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/27/sports/baseball/27dickey.html?pagewanted=2&ei=5088&en=3900d66b14c7d88f&ex=1361768400&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss
I wonder what type of grip hes using, will the knuckleball be thrown even harder in relief?
February 28th, 2008 at 6:53 pm Quote
I’m not sure throwing the knuckleball harder is necessarily a good thing because getting it to move (unpredictably) is by far the most important issue. However, throwing the fastball faster is definitely a good thing, as well as getting a larger differential between the fastball and knuckler. Wakefield has an average difference of 9 mph, while Dickey may have a differential as much as 15 MPH (although unlikely). This suggests to me that he may have higher upside than Wake, but ultimately his success is going to hinge on how well he develops the knuckle and that isn’t something that we can forecast.
February 28th, 2008 at 6:58 pm Quote
Wow, 77 is really fast, maybe the fastest you can throw a true knuckler. However, I again question whether that is actually a good thing. While faster is generally better, sometimes throwing slower is a strength if it is less than what a hitter is used to (since a player’s reflexes have to be finely tuned to hit high speed object). That is definitely true of the knuckleball.
February 28th, 2008 at 10:15 pm Quote
Jim Bouton wrote a lot about this in Ball Four…
Knuckleballers are forever on the lookout for a decent 3-1 pitch. They try splitfingers, change curves, etc…
An 88 fastball would be positively lethal for Tim Wakefield… any batter in the majors would tell you that it would look 110 mph. …the problem is, the windup is usually completely different …. the $64,000 question here is whether Dickey can throw a mid-80’s fastball without telegraphing it two seconds ahead of time…
If he could throw it flatfooted, a la Jim Kaat, he’d be a nightmare…
February 29th, 2008 at 6:33 am Quote
I don’t know whether he is capable of throwing his FB and KN with the same wind-up…I’d need to see him pitch live to tell.
February 29th, 2008 at 7:22 am Quote
Taro, the grip is pictured on the first page of that article.
February 29th, 2008 at 8:33 am Quote
McLaren testing Dickey at fullbase 1 out.
Wow !!!
And Dickey without walk on balls. The hit was unlucky but I think Dickey made it well and he deserved the win.
As for the 77mph knuckle. I think it similar to a fork ball.
February 29th, 2008 at 8:38 am Quote
*Looks at photo…grabs ball…goes to back yard.
February 29th, 2008 at 12:31 pm Quote
Well, here’s a few shots of Robert Allen’s grip that I took in 2006. He was terrible back then, so I’m rooting extra hard for him to succeed. I always like stories of guys sucking up their egos and trying something different to doing their darndedst to achieve their dreams…
March 7th, 2008 at 2:35 pm Quote
RAD just struck out Derrek Lee on three consecutive swinging strikes. Then he struck out Aramis Ramirez on three consecutive called strikes.
Cool.
March 7th, 2008 at 3:58 pm Quote
.
Dickey emphasized, after the game, that one of his K’s came on an AB where he threw 4 consecutive knuckleballs, and then blew a hitter away with a (presumably mid-high 80’s) fastball.
If D-O-V had adopt-a-players, R.A. Dickey would be one of the top guys:
……………..
Dickey has a looooooooooong way to go, but whatever team owns him, has a shot at developing the best knuckleball pitcher in a long time.
March 7th, 2008 at 5:07 pm Quote
it’s gonna be the Ms…he’s a LOCK to make the team at this point I think.
March 24th, 2008 at 1:53 pm Quote
Down near the bottom of this Geoff Baker post is the interesting info that R.A. along with his hard knuckler also throws a slow knuckler, which he has choosen not to throw yet because of the thin air in Arizona. By his own admission he think it could be a big weapon for him. So that makes Dickey an even more unique pitcher with three potentially nice pitchs, a hard 70 MPH knuckle, a soft Tim Wakefield slow knuckle and a 90 mph fastball. This dude could turn into a legitemate #2 or #3 if the M’s arn’t careful
Better change his arm slot!
March 24th, 2008 at 2:40 pm Quote
LOL on the arm slot comment.
I heard he had a change-curve style knuckler like Wake’s…and he’s smart not to try it in Arizona where it won’t work. So he’ll throw a 65 mph change-knuck, a 76 mph fork-knuck and a 90 mph fastball…
Um…yikes?
March 24th, 2008 at 10:00 pm Quote
Throw it to the middle of the plate and it’s all over ladies and gents. Bona fide pain in the caboose for opposing teams, right there.
March 27th, 2008 at 8:32 pm Quote
Watching M’s vs SF ST game, Dickey’s aquisiton is one of the best in this off-season.
Kudos to Bavasi.
March 27th, 2008 at 11:46 pm Quote
Dickey just looks like a big league TOR starter out there…he’ll always have some walks but that’s OK since knuckleballers have low BABIP.
March 28th, 2008 at 12:10 am Quote
Only saw one inning, but…
1. Youse amigos were absolutely right, that the faster knuckleball moves less. Acts more like a hard splitter.
2. He showed the dancing change-knuckler, which Burke had a rough time catching. Kevin Mitchell used to say, “if the catcher can catch it, I can hit it”… is the reciprocal also true? :- )
3. Deception between the FB and the knuckler looked great, since he uses his FB motion to throw the knuckle. That is huge. The biggest thing I wondered about, and that’s a big A+.
4. Cool move keeping runners on 1B, which is very nice for a knuckleball pitcher of course.
………………..
Put R.A. Dickey into a major league rotation somewhere, and I ‘08 roto-draft him long before Silva, Washburn, or Batista. I’m guessing most of youse would say the same.
March 28th, 2008 at 1:17 am Quote
indeed, Doc. every time I see him pitch, I get increasingly more excited.
March 28th, 2008 at 7:26 am Quote
He looked great last night. 1 hit in four innings. And good command of his other pitches. I am excited to see this guy on the club.
March 28th, 2008 at 2:29 pm Quote
DrDetecto wrote:
i totally want to grab him for my fake team right now, before anybody in the wider world wises up. it’s just frustrating that he’s likely to be in such a remainder-bin role. i need ten more roster slots.
June 12th, 2008 at 9:40 am Quote
FYI from this a.m.
June 12th, 2008 at 12:24 pm Quote
:hats thrown in air:
Yyyyeahhh!
MVN-S, babe.
June 24th, 2008 at 7:03 pm Quote
Change of Speed:
Dickey tries to seize day in next start
It was Charlie Hough who gave the tip to Dickey to change speed.
Great 7 inning shutout by Dickey.
On the other hand Booo— to the M’s coaches who could not provide such obvious tip to Dickey.
June 24th, 2008 at 7:21 pm Quote
yeah…I don’t think our pitching coach is getting it done…good pitchers pitching HORRIBLY…that’s a bad sign.
June 24th, 2008 at 10:08 pm Quote
Why did we go with Mel over Mazzone again?
June 24th, 2008 at 11:37 pm Quote
It was pretty obvious even to this club that when Dickey was pitching lights out he was throwing his nice soft 65-75 mph knuckler, but when he was in the rotation he was over throwing and not getting nearly as much break (and also not very much speed differential from the fast ball. The harder knuckler is a weapon only of you throw in conjunction with the slower knuckler and the fastball. Tonight the slow knuck was back, and we all saw the results!
Way To Go RA!
June 25th, 2008 at 7:35 am Quote
Weired.
Before the game only MLB.com reported that Dickey got a tip from Charlie Hough.
Now after the game Dickey says to the press (All local papers) that he made a phone call to Wakefield and got a tip to change speed.
It seems that Dickey called (asked) plural knuckleballers for help.
He may have gotten tip(s) from the M’s coaches too but it was not reported.
If a postman is bitten by a dog = no news
If a dog bitten by a postman = news
So maybe if there was a tip from M’s coach = no news
June 25th, 2008 at 8:04 am Quote
Thing is…it’s hard for pitching coaches to help knuckleballers. Most pitching coaches have never thrown a knuckleball successfully and don’t understand what makes that pitch effective.
The last two starts I watched from Dickey, he was throwing it about 74 mph and it looked REALLY flat…like a slightly bendy straight change-up. This time, it looked more like a nasty overhand curveball only slower and slightly more erratic.
We need the big break and funny spin of the slow knuckleball more often.
June 30th, 2008 at 9:14 pm Quote
A GREAT start last time out and another very nice start tonight, he was on the edge a bunch, but never fell off the cliff with only 2 runs over 6 and a third. It looks like maybe our knuckleballer is starting to find is starting groove. This is his extended tryout for a starting spot next year, so while these games don’t mean much to the team they mean a ton to him. GO RA!
June 30th, 2008 at 11:07 pm Quote
Dickey is exactly the type of pitcher who should occupy the BOR or swingman role on a winning ballclub. He’s getting results right now, and that’s the most important part for an unorthodox guy like him.
Here’s hoping they are able to realize that you really can find guys like this for absolutely free if you’re willing to rotate bodies through the slots for long enough. Dickey is a perfect fit for just about any club, with versatility and near-minimum cost.
July 1st, 2008 at 8:02 am Quote
Dickey had 2 very good outings.
But do you realise that there have been some batters who went something like 3-3 against him?
Here some batters from NYM and TOR who had 3 hits against him.
Fernando Tatís 3-3
Scott Rolen 4-3
David Eckstein 5-3
These batters are contact type batters and can see the ball very well.
(maybe Scott Rolen is not so)
A study of knuckleballers vs batters (Wakefield etc against batters) andfinding a trend what kind of batters are doing well may be interesting.