SportsCenter tonight noticed too. 50 games left, the M's "with the outright lead in the Wild Card," raving about "the Magic Mariners" and "a [whale] of a story" and "you wonder where Mike Hargrove is right now."
What I'm wondering, is whether Danny Fortson and Jose Guillen are brothas from another motha…
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Larry Stone's fine article got right to the point. We'll excerpt a bit here, above the premcont "fold" in the paper: :- )
Jose Guillen was sporting a sore middle finger on his right hand after being hit in the first inning by a 95 mph fastball from Daniel Cabrera.
"I don't know if I'll be able to throw," Guillen said. "It's dark blue and swollen, and I'll bet you it's worse tomorrow."
That didn't stop Guillen, after writhing in pain, from ripping a home run in his next at-bat off Cabrera.
"They don't come any tougher than Jose Guillen, I'll tell you that right now," McLaren said. "Cabrera throws hard."
This was Guillen's thirteenth HBP so far this season. What the "13" symbol does not represent for the reader, is what it looks like on the field, when a guy gets destroyed by a 95 mph fastball …. gets up swearing a blue streak, furious at the pitcher, and then crowds the plate next time up. Much less when he jacks one out!
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=== Harley-Davidson If Y'Have To Ask, Y'Wouldn't Unnerstand Dept. ===
The athlete on the field knows what it means when one o' yours knocks down the enforcer on the other side, and the other team all looks away and backs down from the confrontation.
It means that you are now the bullies and they the customers. It means that you are now the tacklers, and they the dummies. It means a whale of a lot to have a Danny Fortson type, on your side, go out there and put the fear of Achilles into the men on the other side.
Hate to keep taking the bait. But is Ichiro himself conducting a non-intelligent conversation when he tries to explain the difference between this team and the 2005-2006 editions?
We sat and watched the 2005-06 teams mail in the season in May. We heard Ichiro confirm this from the dugout. We sat and watched this team do exactly the opposite, fight to the last drop of blood every time out. And having watched it happen, we still insist that if we can't symbolize a concept with alphanumerics on a HBT webpage, that it doesn't exist?
Us-all having been stunned by what Fortson did for Nate's Sonics, it's cause for reflection as to what extent Jose Guillen is reprising the Fortson role for this ballclub…
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=== Thursday, Even Dr. D Finally Got It, Dept. ===
Guillen's 13 HBP's, and his big RBI, and his ferocious persona, are having their effect. The 2007 Seattle Mariners think they can win. Guillen's obviously a big part of that.
If you hadn't bought in before, Thursday night presented a convergence of elements that captured the spirit of the 2007 Mariners:
<premcont>
August 10th, 2007 at 7:33 am Quote
Your comment about testosterone is actually supported by science. There was a controlled study a few years back that found that pro athletes (especially NFL players) had higher than average testosterone levels. So did prison inmates. You do the math…
August 10th, 2007 at 7:59 am Quote
There’s a reason why your site is always the first I visit Doc. It’s pleasure to write for the site once in awhile, but it pales in comparison to reading your masterpieces (of which there are many, and of which this one certainly qualifies).
This article makes me hate one of the M’s main radio advertisements even more. My wife now cringes for me every time it comes on. It’s the anti-go-to-battle mentality in the extreme. The “you can count on Raul” shtick is everything I hate about the org. Not that I’m not an Ibanez fan. I am, but even so - his decline is unmistakable. I could just use a lot less of the warm fuzzy and a lot more of the “we’re in it to win it” stuff - curiously absent from any M’s promotions.
August 10th, 2007 at 9:21 am Quote
I’m torn between signing Guillen for two more seasons. I’m in if this is what we get. Tough, angry player taking it out on the opponent. But like Fortson Guillen hasn’t proven that he can’t channel his zeal only against the opponents.
If at the end of the season he’s still stalking the opposition and not his manager or teammates then I think it will be a much easier decision to bring him back. One of the things I’ll be interested in seeing is his relationship with Adam Jones. Can they co-exsist without Jones having to take a subserient role?
On a side note I heard Willie B say in a passive yet aggressive way that if he doesn’t get more playing time (he’s bummed that Jones is taking his AB’s) that he’ll have to consider moving on in the future to a team that can promise him more PT. I can’t blame him for his spirit and ambition, afterall that more than anything is why he’s in the big leagues, but he also needs to know his limitations. Making veiled threats on a radio show doesn’t make the M’s brass all warm and fuzzy. Ask Jeff Nelson.
August 10th, 2007 at 9:38 am Quote
Doesn’t Willie B make a play for more PT in the media every year at right about this time?
And I totally agree about the bare knuckes aspect of this team - very refreshing. It’s probably a combination of things - Ichiro opening up and taking a bit more of the leadership reigns, Guillen’s ‘tude, the entire management being publically put on the hot seat, etc.
Offensively at least, they are taking the fight to the other team more often than not. The bull pen is doing it night in an night out. The starting pitching? Sometimes yes, sometimes no.
August 10th, 2007 at 11:43 am Quote
Willie Bloomquist may get his wish. With the acquisition of Parrish from Baltimore the Ms now have four lefthanded relief pitchers. This may indicate that a LHP and possibly Willie may be playing elsewhere. I hope the Ms can get a starter who has an ERA below 7.12.
August 10th, 2007 at 12:17 pm Quote
LOL!
Probably the perfect followup comment to the main article. :spoints:
August 10th, 2007 at 12:18 pm Quote
#2 - thx for the spoints Russ…
Hadn’t thought of the way the testosterone principle applies the way you did. That’s a tremendous point.
August 10th, 2007 at 12:20 pm Quote
Another interesting point amigo…
Personally, I’m optimistic that Guillen has a much better chance to stick with the program than Fortson, though that doesn’t mean I’d re-sign him.
What would you say the % chance is, that Guillen’s personality turns him into an overall liability at some point this year or next?
August 10th, 2007 at 1:24 pm Quote
A lot is made of Anaheim and the whole fight with Scoscia, but I think that’s more Scoscia’s fault than Guillen’s…if you don’t know what kind of personality he has…talk to the Angels…he’s not quite Al Martin, but he is very direct and very confrnotational even with his own players.
August 10th, 2007 at 1:24 pm Quote
I’d put the Guillen liability chance at about 65%. Combine the fact there are 3 OFs plus Raul (who claims to play OF) and the chance that the M’s might not be as good (always an option). I seriously think he would’ve blown up this year if the team hadn’t been winning. Winning is the ultimate cure-all.
August 10th, 2007 at 1:45 pm Quote
Don’t disagree Seth…
You’re keeping in mind that Guillen got tossed off the island in the middle of a stretch run with the Halos? :- )
Per Inside Pitch, the biggest risk factor with Guillen comes in how well he’s playing personally … the better he plays, the more the bull-in-china-shop shtick he enjoys indulging …
He’s been playing *fairly* well lately and we got a fairly sizeable controversy when Jones came up. :- )
Okay, gimme the 600 SLG down the stretch and I’ll take the jerkweed personality…
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Will agree to the extent that Mike Scioscia runs a tight ship and might occasionally get into a confrontation that McLaren would step around. That’s quite possible.
Good stuff.
August 10th, 2007 at 1:47 pm Quote
Of course the point of this thread, if we want the Cliffs Notes –
Jose Guillen isn’t the first one to walk the plank when the new sailors come aboard.
Raul Ibanez, then Jose Vidro, then it’s between Sexson and Guillen.
So, the extension for “Danny Fortson, RF” could make sense to me IFF it is in the context of offloading a couple of the other guys.
August 10th, 2007 at 2:46 pm Quote
I think another manager would have soothed Guillen’s temper a little by having a heart to heart with him and telling him he was tghe greatest but asking him for just a touch more caution with his words and another manager would have had Guillen’s bat in there in the post-season. Scoscia was corret in that he defended the most important player (Vlad), btu you can defend both and keep your best team on the field.
August 10th, 2007 at 2:53 pm Quote
Definitely possible…
As Pitch has noted, Jose Guillen was a royal pain in the neck the entire year, and not only Scioscia but everybody was real tired of it.
So you’d be asking Nate McMillan to go sweet-talk Danny Fortson after episode #32. It’s asking a lot. Still, some managers do it, and that’s the nature of the high-maintenance athlete…
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Credit Bill Bavasi for spelling out the terms and conditions, and tying it to Guillen’s wallet. That’s real GM’ing, to find a player with a few warts, (attempt to) remove the warts and then to enjoy the production.
We have a tendency to see people as 2-dimensional — that if we’re down on them, to assume that nothing they do is praiseworthy.
August 10th, 2007 at 3:23 pm Quote
Guillen has probably only a 10% chance of blowing up this season, imo. I would increase that to 25-30% next though…and that’s a fair chance when you think about it.
Look - the first time Adam Jones came into a game to pinch run for Jose, Guillen gave him the old fist-tap on their way past each other. This is after the whole “episode” in the press. Guillen’s just not carrying grudges, at least against players on his own team, this year. He seems to be “saying what needs to be said” (in his opinion of course), and then letting it be, and going about keeping his own fire lit.
If I sit here and look at Jose Guillen from the perspective of seeing only what his contributions are, both positive/negative, and on the field/off the field, for this year only (ie. ignore and/or forget about his “rap sheet”), then I have to say I’m a big fan. Do I sign him to an extension? If I’m confident I’ve sorted out the rest of the cast when it comes to overpaid veterans undersproducing in general on this team…then yes. If I’m still a bit unsure about “how it’s all going to work out”, then no.
August 10th, 2007 at 3:27 pm Quote
I wanted to elaborate on the fist tap, then got off track…
I’m not a psychologist or mind reader, nor do I play one on tv, but to me, when I looked at the facial expressions on AJ and Guillen when they passed each other, it wasn’t a case of grudgingly showing respect for each other…it was more a case of Guillen indicating, “go git ‘em, kid…prove me wrong”. It was instantaneous, and maybe I was projecting what I was hoping to see, but I do know that it was Jose who raised the fist first, so that, in and of itself, speaks volumes as far as I’m concerned.
August 10th, 2007 at 3:39 pm Quote
I don’t see any animosity between them…all Guillen said was that he didn’t want Jones up here if he wasn’t going to perform and if he was going to cost Guillen playing time. I agree with him. Guillen will warm up to AJ if he keeps hitting like he did last night and if Guillen stays in the line-up…and Guillen SHOULD stay in the line-up.
August 10th, 2007 at 3:59 pm Quote
The fact that Guillen was dismissed in the heat of a pennant race is a bit scary for me.
If Guillen continues to get the same amount of at bats I think he’ll be fine but if he has to start sharing at bats then I would think the blow-up potential to be 70%.
Logically (for me at least) he knows that if Jones is as good as advertised his at bats are ultimately going to come from Guillen’s. Both right handed, both right fielders something will have to give and he knows it.
August 10th, 2007 at 5:20 pm Quote
Eastern Yin-Yang theory takes all this to the Nth degree.
Over the millenia, they have found it useful and predictive to classify virtually everything as masculine or feminine to one degree or another.
Certainly aggression, crime, valor, and related character traits are Yang.
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We have differences on the conservative-liberal spectrum, but hopefully most of us can agree that we don’t want America to drift too far to the Yin end of the spectrum. It’s already far, far more Yin than it was in the day of George Washington, in the day of Abraham Lincoln, in the day of Teddy Roosevelt — even in the day of JFK.
Of course, there are many advantages to the fact that America has mixed a certain amount of Yin in with the Yang.
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Be that as it may, we all enjoy the manly Yang manifestation in war — it’s why 300 and Troy and Gladiator mop up at the box office, and why we watch sports, no?
Poor form to be too hard on the athletes who are running 900/ml testosterone levels and who sometimes act like it off the field. ;- )
August 10th, 2007 at 5:22 pm Quote
Well, he was given an ultimatum by the Angels to get with the program, and he deliberately told them to take a hike.
The HOPE is that he is sadder and wiser for having been powerflushed out of a pennant race to do purgatory in Bowdenville, but that may be all it is, a hope…
Thanks for the ‘put amigo. Let’s hope you’re not right :- )
August 10th, 2007 at 5:24 pm Quote
Ya.
Guillen has definitely been on his very best behavior this year, at least as far as we know.
August 11th, 2007 at 8:34 am Quote
I don’t think we’re going to have to worry this year about Guillen. His at bats are seemingly safe, and rightfully so. I love that he played last night with the injury (fear of being Wally Pipped?), he’s a tough dude and I hope he finishes the season strong and gives the Mariners management a whole season to evaluate his his overall game. Let them see how he deals with another pennant race before re-signing him.
August 27th, 2007 at 3:44 pm Quote
Seems espn thinks it’s the Jose Vidro Mariners
see link
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2992825
August 28th, 2007 at 12:50 am Quote
Not to get too emotional, and I can’t find where to put this, but are you as confident, Doc, as to your Jose Lopez predictions as in the past? If so, ok. I just don’t see the star in the making. Someone has to address his lack of conditioning. His bat seems slow again, and he is not adjusting to breaking pitches. No improvement from last year, if you ask me. Most good prospects show something from year to year. If its there, I can’t see it.
August 28th, 2007 at 7:01 am Quote
It’s tough to generate batspeed when you arm-wave at pitches flatfooted. His mechanics are total garbage right now.
August 28th, 2007 at 9:53 am Quote
You know what good teams do when their uber prospect (even the one who has just sign a four year extension) hits .258 with no power and no discipline and shows no signs of life in the middle of a critical pennant race? They bench his lame backside and tr someone else. Like…Vidro?
I know Vidro is kinda scary defensively, but he’s not a total and complete hack and if you have a groundball heavy starter on the mound, you can go with Bloomquist.
August 28th, 2007 at 11:48 am Quote
#26 - But, Matt, the Ms ARE currently the AL Wild Card team. So, if management makes ANY move at this point, and the club doesn’t make the playoffs, it becomes THEIR fault. Much, much safer to do nothing at all — that way, if the club misses the post-season, they can just blame it on the players for failing to come through in the clutch.
August 28th, 2007 at 12:04 pm Quote
unfortunately…that’s probably exactly what McLaren is thinking…he’s in “keep his job for 2008″ mode and doesn’t want to do anything controversial yet.
August 28th, 2007 at 6:55 pm Quote
Really wish we’d start sticking Vidro at 2B two/three days a week, and get AJ in the lineup.. His upside if he starts hitting is a whole lot better than just watching Lopez hit a soft .200 the rest of the season
August 28th, 2007 at 7:05 pm Quote
Indeed. Even if Jones only hits .230 this year, his OPS will probably be higher than Lopez.
August 29th, 2007 at 3:55 pm Quote
Any thoughts on the possible Guillen extension? 3 years, I don’t know how much.
How much would be too much? What of Wlad? Great move to provide stability, bad move blocking the youth movement, a prelude to a trade, what?
August 29th, 2007 at 4:31 pm Quote
Dave Cameron thinks it will be 3/30. Which seems reasonable to me. We can argue about whether it was worth signing a guy at market value with Wlad Balentien on the way or not, but from where I’m sitting, Jose Guillen almost single-handedly changed the character of the Mariner clubhouse and that’s worth a longer term commitment on our part. I’m OK with the deal…not ecstatic, not upset.
I never saw Wlad as a big part of our future…he’s nice trade bait though…hopefully he won’t get squandered on some fifth starter.
The program I’d like to see next year as illustrated through GS by position:
Catchers:
Johjima (125)
Clement (37)
First Base:
Broussard (90)
Clement (35)
Morse (30)
Bloomquist (7)
Second Base:
Lopez (105)
Vidro (40)
Bloomquist (12)
Morse (5)
Third Base:
Beltre (155)
Morse (5)
Bloomquist (2)
Shortstop:
Betancourt (150)
Bloomquist (12)
DH:
Vidro (85)
Ibanez (50)
Clement (20)
Ichiro! (5)
Broussard (2)
Left Field:
Ibanez (85)
Jones (60)
Broussard (12)
Morse (5)
Center Field:
Ichiro! (155)
Jones (7)
Right Field:
Guillen (150)
Jones (7)
Broussard (5)
By Player:
Ichiro! (160)
Beltre (155)
Betancourt (155)
Guillen (150)
Ibanez (135)
Vidro (125)
Johjima (125)
Broussard (109)
Lopez (105)
Clement (92)
Jones (74)
Morse (45)
Bloomquist (33)
I found everybody lots of playing time…kept guys fresh and used two good prospects in important roles to help them develop while keeping the temperamental veterans happy and playing almost every day.